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Rent-seeking is the true American way, it seems.

Good on the hackers. Good on everyone who helps to liberate us from the overreach of big business.



Is it rent seeking/overreach?

I make a video game and charge $50 for it. Later I make a DLC and charge $25 for it.

Is your claim that if I keep them as separate purchasable downloads, I'm not rent seeking?

But if instead combine the game and dlc into a single executable (to simplify build and distribution) and put the dlc behind a software lock, somehow that is now rent seeking/overreach and I deserve to have hackers unlock it for everyone for free?


Even though that is not exactly the issue I refer to, I still say yes, that is my claim, from a moral perspective.

If the content is on the disc or shipped as part of the files of the base game, then it should be accessible without additional purchase. Otherwise, you're undercharging for the original deliverable, and overcharging for the actual "downloadable content".

Imagine this taken to the logical extreme. I sell you a printer. It comes with an amount of ink. However, I've decided that instead of allowing all of the ink to be used, I will limit the printer to only give you X number of pages per cartridge, regardless of actual ink content. Buuuuut, you can also pay me $5 for the "ability" to use all of the ink in your cartridges instead of only part of it. Would it be wrong for hackers to unlock my printers to use all of the ink without having to pay a subscription fee?


> Otherwise, you're undercharging for the original deliverable, and overcharging for the actual "downloadable content".

This is called price discrimination and it’s a great thing. You’re talking about under/over charging but that’s absurd: there is no such thing. People pay what something is worth to them.

What you’re advocating for creates actual economic inefficiencies: the people who don’t want the DLC must either pay a higher price, or not make the purchase at all, and the people who would happily pay for the additional DLC now get a net cheaper price, despite a willingness to pay more.


> Even though that is not exactly the issue I refer to, I still say yes, that is my claim, from a moral perspective.

And what's the "moral perspective" in question? Is it just "whatever benefits the consumer"?


Seems morally dubious. When you purchase software, it doesn't mean you automatically own the bytes and can do whatever you want with them. There are things call licenses that dictate what you are allowed to do, and you agree to the license when you decide to use the software. If you agree not to use the software for commercial purposes when you purchase it, you can't morally decide "my bytes my choice" and just to use it for commercial purposes anyway. Just because money has changed hands doesn't mean you now have free reign to do whatever you want with the bytes. If someone sells you linux for $1000, that doesn't mean you are allowed to make it closed source for further development because the GPL license you agreed to prevents you from doing so.


I don't think I agree with your moral stance.

If I buy a car, then, yes, "my hardware my choice". Software should be no different.

I personally think end user license agreements are immoral. If you want to attach conditions to use, you should have to spend the time to work out a proper contract, executed by both parties, with consideration provided on both sides.

But I still think that's weird. To use your "commercial use" example, if I buy a lawnmower, the company that sells it to me should not be able to dictate that I can only use it for personal use, on my own lawn. If I want to use it to mow my neighbors' lawns and charge them for it, they can't stop me.

Copyright licenses like the GPL are interesting. I've released software under the GPL in the past (though these days I usually choose more permissive licenses like Apache or MIT). The GPL itself is essentially a hack that rides on our current awful copyright law in order to creatively subvert it. If our copyright laws were more reasonable and more aimed toward benefiting the public commons, we may not even have a need for the GPL; it's even possible that big parts of it would be unenforceable in a more reasonable copyright regime.

Just a note on this:

> If you agree not to use the software for commercial purposes when you purchase it, you can't morally decide "my bytes my choice" and just to use it for commercial purposes anyway

While this may be true under current law, there's nothing inherent in the universe that makes it this way. We as a society have decided that, legally, some things are out of bounds when it comes to contractual obligations. As an extreme example, you can't contractually sign yourself into slavery. No court (in the US and quite a few other places, at least) would consider that contract valid. The idea that you can sign away your rights to use a piece of software commercially is not some absolute moral good. We could decide as a society that this sort of thing isn't ok, and enshrine it into law.


This is an amusing attempt at a defense if what Tesla is doing given that they are currently violating said GPL license for Linux…


> I still say yes, that is my claim, from a moral perspective.

I personally do not like services that exhibit rent-seeking behavior, but what, precisely, is IMMORAL about the practice?


Yes. You've already distributed the binary to their machine and are using their resources to store it. In my view, it belongs to them and they should have full access.


By that logic, do you think that after someone has paid for 1 month of netflix, and downloaded their entire catalog to your phone for offline viewing, that all the videos "belongs to them and they should have full access"?


Yes, absolutely, if that were a feature the Netflix app allowed.

Obviously it does not: your downloads expire after a certain amount of time, and if you cancel your subscription, you won't be able to get a key to decrypt the files.

Companies are free to try to put restrictions on that sort of thing, but I think if customers are able to circumvent those restrictions (the DMCA anti-circumvention laws notwithstanding), the company should not get to complain about this.


No because Netflix is not a one time purchase, it allows to use the service for as long as you have an active subscription. Also you should know that the download function is limited to 100 titles.

If the game had a base cost of 0 and a monthly price to play it it would be acceptable. Quake Live worked like this and I believe Game Pass.


>No because Netflix is not a one time purchase, it allows to use the service for as long as you have an active subscription

Suppose netflix added a $10 upfront cost for subscriptions to combat people churning subscriptions or whatever. Would that make it justified to download all the shows they let you?

>Also you should know that the download function is limited to 100 titles.

I shouldn't know, because I don't subscribe to netflix :^)


That would be a better comparison (with bundling a game and DLC into single binary) if Netflix insisted that you keep those files on disk past your subscription period. If they did that, yes. But since they don't, no.


I don't think you'd "deserve" to have hackers unlock it, but I also think that you should have no legal right to prevent people from unlocking it without your permission, and I don't think it's unethical or immoral for anyone to do so. If you sell something to someone, and put it in their hands, they should have the right to do whatever they want with it.

Presumably you've made the choice to bundle the base game and the DLC together like that in order to reduce your costs somehow, and I'm not responsible for your business model or logistical issues. If you're worried about people unlocking the DLC for free, don't put it in their hands without charging them for it.

Either way, I think it's entirely reasonable to classify the concept of "charging extra at a later date for something you've already given the customer" as rent-seeking or overreach. Even more so if, instead of a one-time charge, you choose to charge a subscription for something that does not require any ongoing costs for you to provide.


Rent keeps getting paid. It's not a one-time purchase of $25.


What about games with monthly membership fees like world of warcraft?


That's fine, since there's an on-going cost to maintain the cloud infrastructure that the game needs to function. The company is well within its rights to say "if you stop paying us, you stop getting to use our cloud services".

But if there was a single-player or LAN version of the game (I know that's not really possible with something like WoW, but for the sake of the argument...), then players should absolutely not have to pay an on-going subscription fee to play that way.


There's been plenty of WoW private servers throughout history hosted by people who had nothing to do with Blizzard.


And who were then sued into oblivion by Blizzard.


how is this even a question? this is exactly what happened with Star Wars Battlefront II, and EA was once again absoutely crucified by the decision to have paid unlocks for content you technically could grind for but was essentially unfeasible.

the only difference between now and 2017 is people saw EA raking in the money anyway and have followed suit, so it's now more common. the outrage was proved toothless... cause star wars sells, and so does te$la.




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