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Tell HN: Cryptocurrency transactions >$10k require filing IRS Form 8300
17 points by bidandanswer on Jan 3, 2024 | hide | past | favorite | 24 comments
To paraphrase, historically, all cash transactions worth more than $10k that occurred during the course of your trade or business must be reported on IRS Form 8300. Failure to report within 15 days could result in a felony charge.

To clarify "during the course of your trade or business," here are two examples from the IRS' official website:

1. Example: Dave Chestnut bought a new car and sold his old one for $11,000. The buyer paid Mr. Chestnut in cash. Since Mr. Chestnut is not in the trade or business of selling cars, he would not be required to report the receipt of cash exceeding $10,000 from the sale of the car.

2. Example: You are a travel agent. A client pays you $8,000 in cash for a trip. Two days later, the same client pays you $3,000 more in cash to include another person on the trip. These are related transactions, and you must file Form 8300 to report them.

Additionally, wires, ACH transfers, and certain types of checks do not count as cash in this context.

In 2021, congress passed the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act. Snuck into this act was a line that expanded the definition of cash to include "digital assets" [1]. This new definition applies to all forms filed after December 31, 2023.

This means, as of two days ago, all qualifying cryptocurrency transactions must be reported via Form 8300.

To give some real world examples that are extremely common occurrences in the industry today:

1. Example: An engineer writes fully open-source, verifiable smart contract code for a company (or a DAO, it doesn't matter which) that pays them in USDC. Their entire salary is now considered cash and must be reported via Form 8300.

2. Example: Someone who obtained money legitimately retains a US lawyer and pays them in USDC because it's cheaper, faster, and easier. The US lawyer is now required to dox their own client, by filing Form 8300, violating the client's right to privacy.

Unfortunately, Form 8300 is woefully incompatible with the nature of such transactions. This is some of the information you must attempt to gather for the form:

Payer's

- First & Last Name

- Address

- Social Security Number

Other

- "Digital Asset" is not one of the options for the type of cash received

- If paid by a DAO or protocol, it is unclear who, if anyone, can be specified as the person or business that paid you. They do not have a name, address, or social security number.

The IRS will soon be inundated by hundreds of thousands (I may be off on the low side by many orders of magnitude) of half-completed forms. If you are operating a trade or business whose cash flow occurs in any digital asset, you must figure out how to complete an uncomplete-able IRS form and you are on the hook for severe financial and criminal penalties if you do not.

Whether or not the form is constitutional is a related legal question, the answer to which seems to be leaning "yes," unfortunately.

It is disheartening that opaque, incomplete reporting infrastructure is coupled with severe financial and criminal penalties.

Please, reach out to your congressperson and urge them to force the IRS to provide more clarity and guidance on this issue.

1. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3684/text



Just another milestone in the cryptocurrency speedrun of "the rediscovery of financial regulatory systems"


This is another get out or pay moment. The question is how will this work for bitcoin users. Crime happens with any form of payment; the issue is combined effort (and lack of) on all sides. Average crypto liquidity is also to low for a slice. If these documents were to be managed and reported by all exchanges and "automatically signed" the "security" of users isn't an issue directly only bad actors. This information is already required upon sign-up on exchanges. What are we doing?


That was always going to happen one way or another. The reason blockchain/cryptocurrency can be faster/cheaper is not because of a technical breakthrough, it's because it's a creative way to evade banking regulations.


That is true. Crypto is not faster/cheaper because of a technological breakthrough. The reason crypto can be faster/cheaper is because it cuts out the middleman. The traditional financial system is full of incumbents and middlemen who take a cut of every transaction. Crypto rebuilds the financial system from the ground up and removes ALL middlemen. Instead of verifying the legitimacy of a transaction using a trusted third party, crypto uses cryptography. The same kind of cryptography used in PGP or encrypted email.

Crypto is a disruptive technology class that many incumbents hate because it literally removes them from their powerful position as a middleman. There are usually at least 3 middlemen in every credit card transaction. [0] Combined, these come to a fee of (on average) 2.24%. [1] There are zero intermediates involved with a crypto transaction. The total fee on Solana (the leading payments blockchain) is less than $0.01 for any amount transfered. A 1 million dollar transfer on Solana costs the same amount of fees as a 10 cent transfer.

> a creative way to evade banking regulations. Coinbase, the leading US crypto exchange, has been trying to get regulatory clarity for years [2]. Crypto wants regulation, but the SEC refuses to provide it. The SEC would prefer to "regulate by enforcement" [3]. It sounds to me like the SEC is the one trying to avoid having to create banking regulations...

[0] https://www.managementstudyguide.com/intermediaries-to-a-cre...

[1] https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/research/average-credit-card...

[2] https://www.forbes.com/sites/digital-assets/2023/12/15/coinb...

[3] https://www.goodwinlaw.com/en/insights/publications/2023/05/...


Yep, happening in the EU with DAC8, too.


Are the examples actually extremely common? What exactly is the caveat 'in the industry' limiting to?

Engineers writing the code that is used to pay them? Why?

Lawyers being easier to pay in USDC? Since when?


Try sending $10k to a US lawyer from outside the US. Takes a lot of time and money. Do it on chain. Takes 400ms and costs a fraction of a penny.

> Engineers writing the code that is used to pay them?

The DAO is not the smart contract.


We send money to US lawyers all the time via Wise. It's near instant. Obviously we had to verify the company identity, but that's also true for every legal exchange.


I think OP's point about it being faster and cheaper stands.

What exactly are you trying to say?


It's nearly instant and costs €0.50 + 0.56% of the transfer, not exactly breaking the bank.


Wow, that's horrible. Sending $1m nets $560 in fees.

That's like 5.6 million times worse than typical Solana fees.

That's a Michelin-star meal. Or two.


~$5,600.

> That's like 5.6 million times worse than typical Solana fees.

And how much will it cost to get move into and out from SOL?


Nothing. Send USDC to Circle, Coinbase, or any centralized exchange for a fraction of a penny. Swap to USD for free. ACH transfer to bank for free.


And how much does it cost to get USDC from Euro and then back to USD on the other end?

Let's be honest, if it was cheaper and faster, it would be the standard, right?


> Let's be honest, if it was cheaper and faster, it would be the standard, right?

Except that the US regulatory system hates crypto for some reason. SEC has repeatedly denied requests from coinbase for regulation. Like wtf?


Nothing. It's probably cheaper to swap Euro stable -> USDC on chain than whatever fees your banks charge you.

Additionally, if you're building a legitimate business on chain, then all your cash is already on chain.


If you want to send a million $ in USDC, BTC or another digital asset, can't you just send 9999 100 times and resolve the difference on fees?


That's called smurfing and is bound to get you flagged as a money launderer.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/smurf.asp


Structuring like that is explicitly mentioned in the tax code and is forbidden.

Transactions that attempt to avoid the $10k threshold must also be reported on Form 8300.


Yep, not only forbidden but a criminal offence in all Western countries.



And that was flagged because the information I listed was considered incorrect. This updated post has corrected the errors.

Act in good faith.



Greyface, go back to the region of Thud.




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