Exactly. I think there are really 3 main ways I view time spent. - 1. Time spent learning a skill with economic value. - 2. Time spent for leasure. - 3. Time spent to fulfill biological needs (eating, sleep, etc.)

No. 1 can be pretty subjective and time where input does not correlate to output. Ages ago, learning to be a blacksmith was a very economically in-demand skill, but today it would at best be considered a hobby. No. 1 is time spent to obtain needs as well as wants. Everyone must have some source of income for food, shelter, etc.

No. 2 can be anything that one does for enjoyment. I find it pointless to argue about what kind of enjoyment is "productive" or "wasteful" because each form of enjoyment is just getting better at a skill whether that be video games or playing violin. The only "productive" entertainment would be something that advances your economic value (thus being more of a No. 1 spend of time.

The best would be to try and combine time into something that is both advances your economic value as well as is something you enjoy.

There are two different types of "want". You want to live a full and meaningful life. You also want another cigarette if you're addicted to smoking. Sure there are people who would consciously choose a cigarette, but they are a minority. Most people would rather be productive and do something that makes their lives better even if they end up lighting a cigarette.

You're already positioning yourself in a very specific value framework when you put productivity and self-improvement at the forefront. There are many other frameworks in which finding pleasure in the present has value.

I've known people who chased the future so hard they never took the time to live.

I believe I've addressed that saying that some would consciously pick a cigarette. I think it is reasonable to say that such people are a minority.

So if they had watched more TV would that have constituted “taking the time to live”?

If watching TV had brought them pleasure in the present, yes that would fit the definition I was using.

Don't confuse output with productivity.

You can also do "productive" things while you smoke a cigarette (albeit physically unhealthy).

Many people do a lot of things they think are productive but see no improvement in outcomes. i.e. reading articles

> Many people do a lot of things they think are productive but see no improvement in outcomes. i.e. reading articles

Or to put a different spin on this, some people spend so much time producing things that they never pick up a book.

Consider a moment the framework where people's actions tell the truth about their true wants, and the possibility that many people constantly and effortlessly tell lies (to themselves and others) about what they actually want.

Do you really think an addict is in control of what they really want? Or are their life choices being made for them? I found it was kind of the latter when I'd say I was 'addicted' to gaming. It was what I wanted in the immediate moment but far from what I wanted in my life overall. The latter gets destroyed by many short term wants, such as drugs or the kind of internet use r/nosurf exists to counter.

Deciding whether something is waste is a value judgement about what you spent it on. If you make a beautiful food sculpture that you enjoy looking at, but doing so renders the food inedible, is that food waste or not? If you feed it to someone who's already eaten more than a healthy day's food intake, is that food waste or not?

You can only say whether time is wasted if you have a measure of what's a valuable use of time, and the idea that "productive" activities are more valuable than social farting around is not uncontroversial.

Then can you come up with a rigorous definition of "waste" here that others would agree with? Definitions usually require consensus.

Resources spent which, after their consumption, do not result in an experience which a human would look back upon with fondness or gratitude.

Probably not, because video game addicts will not admit they have an issue, much less one that wastes valuable time.

What is your definition of a wasted life? It's bound to be different from the next person.

Food is made to be eaten, that is its purpose. So it's clear what wasted food is.

What is the purpose of a human life? There is no universal answer, hence no universal way to define what is a wasted life.

I'm wasting my life working on world changing problems when I could be spending it playing WoW.

Doesn't it get incredible repetitive and boring with time? You get a new extension/DLC and you have a few new things to discover and monsters to slay or whatever, and then it's back to farming gold?

At that point, you're probably 'playing' it because of the social interaction with other people, aren't you?

I'm playing devil's advocate. I haven't actually played much WoW, but I have spent a long time thinking about escapism with a critical eye. It's one of my biggest regrets.

I encourage people to waste their time. I was the happiest when I had free time to putz around with games and hobbies. I made stuff for the joy of it. I wouldn't wish a successful career on my worst enemy.

I don't see any utility in distinguishing between flavors of escapism. Why would productivity make a judge say one waste of time is better than another? Because that judge doesn't see the value in wasting time and the ones with creativity seem more like work and less like fun.

I don't think that everything "non-productive" is "wasting time", but wasting time is by definition not productive.

It's the difference between sleeping so you can be awake and putting yourself into a dreamless coma because you can't think of anything better to do. Watching TV (and not having it play in the background while you're doing something else) is the equivalent of a coma.