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Eve Online's most notorious player has quit the game (pcgamer.com)
120 points by Vaslo on July 22, 2022 | hide | past | favorite | 125 comments


While I haven't played EvE in many years, I still hold many fond memories of it back from my middle/high school years. Particularly when I chose to abandon the peaceful in-game lifestyle of building and selling ship to other players in favor of the pirate life.

I did this by fitting a small and fast ship with close-range weaponry that allowed me to take engagements versus much larger ships whose weapons couldn't reliably hit a target with so much transverse velocity. In addition I would run a special module that allowed you to deactivate your opponents warp drive, preventing them from escaping.

In game life was then just patrolling law-less star systems waiting for another player to arrive, typically they'd come to my star-systems in search of NPC pirates to destroy, netting in-game currency.

Once the prey was busy fighting the ai-pirates, I'd warp into their local space and begin shooting them to pieces. Once their ship was on the brink of destruction, I'd open a comm channel and demand an in-game currency transfer in exchange for letting them go.

This was a mutually beneficial arrangement as the ransom was lower than their ship value but also higher than what I could salvage from their wreckage.

As you'd imagine, responses were varied. More often than not however I'd get the payment and they'd return to safe space intact.

Ironically, I received more in-game love-mail than hate-mail for my exploits.

I've grown into a much nicer person since then but I can't help but look back on those times fondly.


Our stories sound similar.

I led a small corp and our whole play was to declare war on high-sec mining corporations (a formal war deceleration allowed one to avoid the wrath of the "CONCORD" police force). We'd then gank them until they'd pay us a ransom to end the war.

Eventually, some of our former targets started paying us to target other mining groups that they were competing with!

It was really great fun and a set of systems that facilitated the "emergent storytelling" that so many new open-world/survival games aspire to.


Just curious, which hi sec systems?


Asking for a friend? ;)


> This was a mutually beneficial arrangement

Admittedly, in much the same way that robbing someone at gunpoint is a mutually beneficial arrangement; because it's better for them than you just killing them and taking their money.


Assaulting someone and calling it mutually beneficial to keep it as a fond memory feels quite broken.


Yet this was precisely the business model of high seas piracy, and very much still is, so they successfully applied the model.

Ok, I get your point too, I just want to emphasize that what the OP did was essentially similar to casino side betting, going beyond the predicted actions in the world, by adding a layer of “entrepreneurial” spirit.


Great story, thanks. I wouldn't say that role-playing a pirate in a game where players willingly submit to the risks of low-sec space is not nice. You were providing an important service that made the game feel exciting and interesting!


Yeah I paid Bethesda to make bandits, and OP is providing that service for free!


I lived in low-sec for the majority of my time playing EVE. Was a Gal-mil rat that took any fight I could find. Still have good memories of some pretty crazy fights, and some pretty fun engagements. One of my favorites was making a mining barge into a trap for pirates and killing them when they tried to engage me.

The solo pvp life worked until off-grid boosting became so prevalent that most fights were no longer 1v1 even if there were only two ships actively shooting each other. When one ship is boosted to the gills because of a squadron mate somewhere in a safe-spot providing fleet boosts, things got less fun, and I ended up quitting.


edit: Shout out to anyone that flew with the "Monkeys with Guns" Alliance or "Mostly Sober" Corporation back in the day.


I have a very fond memory of an event that occurred in the game while starting as a miner, this was a WOW moment for me, the adrenaline rush in Eve Online is real.

Found the article on the wayback machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20160304033028/http://ghost.pilg...


After having been destroyed entering null-sec while hauling my gear, I changed career and spent my remaining EVE time around PF-346 and null-sec. It was incredibly satisfying to be part of Cry Havoc and I certainly remember those times as the best video game experience I ever had.

https://zkillboard.com/character/725122352/


What made you stop playing?


Well, at least you didn't take the ransom and kill them anyway


it was generally accepted that not honoring your ransoms was a poor choice for two reasons:

1) Word could get around and your 'customers' would stop paying the ransom. Bad for business since the remains of a destroyed ship could be worth substantially less than the ransom.

2) More alarmingly, you could attract the ire of 'honorable' pirates who might just be willing to take time out of their day to make an example out of you. This would likely involve a plurality of suitably armed starships visiting your local space at ...inopportune times.


By the time I started playing it was more common to ransom & kill than just to ransom.

Repeat custom is a rarity in the pirate business


If everyone expects to be killed anyways, then why is anyone paying the ransom?


Mainly it was only panicking newbies who paid the ransom. Losing stuff in Eve hurts more than most games, so people react in true panic style fashion.

There were a few roleplay corps that built in-game reputations on taking ransoms etc seriously. I'm sure they had better results


That is something special about EVE here, it shows that yes it makes sense to honor your word as a pirate. Real life pirates did it, at least the successful ones. Non-AI ones do it. Usually AI pirates and muggers are the only ones stupid enough not to do just that.


Nice. The best thing about Eve are the epic stories that come out of it. I couldn't get into the game, but I love reading about it. I remember a few years ago there was that massive planned attack where they accidentally left their flagship behind. It was one of those battles that was so huge the in game clock had to be slowed way down to handle it all. There was nothing the players could really do but to sit and watch for hours as their fleet was slowly destroyed. Some insane amount of real-world money just went "poof". Truly epic.


I always loved reading stories from eve, but when I tried to get into it I didn't last more than a couple of weeks.


The swashbuckling sounds very wholesome. Does Eve have suicide bombers or any other kinds of asymmetric warfare?


The Coase Theorem in action...


You should come to the Belt. Live the pirate life for real...


Hard to tell from the article whether the real person is stepping down, or his in-universe avatar is. Like, is he gone for good? Or will he just reappear as a new lvl 1 player in two weeks?

I assume the former, but there's something perversely funny about the idea of a player in a fictional universe having to resign from fictional corporation because he failed to adequately address in-universe HR claims.


Former somewhat notorious Eve player here who has met Mittani in meatspace. My bias is that I really, really dislike Mittani as a human being (and our in game groups were very close allies throughout our relationship).

It's impossible to say for sure if he is actually stepping down or not. He has apparently given the "keys to the kingdom" to other Goons and appointed an interim CEO. Whether that means he is actually permanently out of the leadership loop or not remains to be seen. I don't know how close the new interim CEO is to Mittani, but I saw that the person he transferred the corporation shares to is extremely close to him, and the shares is what truly matters. With the shares you can remove the CEO, just like a board in real life.

You can run a major Eve alliance and coalition without ever logging into the game. So while his character may not be listed as CEO anymore, it means very little in and of itself. At the end of the day with groups of thousands of people, it's almost entirely about the politics and group dynamics. If he still has access to the leadership Jabber/Discord/forums and the leadership still believes in him, he could still be the de facto CEO.

I do want to note - this article did a terrible job explaining why so many people are mad at him. There were chat logs and screenshots from various services that showed he:

- kicked a player out for reporting some serious sustained abuse sustained against her by one player

- elevated a well known pedophile to a position of power

- Multiple women unrelated to the game were complaining about him groping them at events in his hometown

Reading the announcement he posted about stepping down, he cast himself entirely as the victim here and took 0 ownership and never apologized. Unless he has finally gotten bored with the Eve metagame, I highly doubt this is the last of him.


So when he says:

> The accusations that I am aware of are unsubstantiated falsehoods

Does he mean that people got mad at him for the three points you listed and started inventing stories about him as a result, or is he flat out denying those things happened at all?


I take it as him denying all of it.

He lies all the time. His style of leadership to the rank and file is to provide a narrative they can buy into, and whether the facts fit that narrative or not doesn't matter. He just needs to keep the narrative roughly coherent for everyone to consume in his group.

To my eyes he's currently playing the, "I'm the victim here, but despite being blameless I will step down for the greater good of the organization" martyrdom and us vs them story. That sets him up nicely for a return to visible power after a few months.

To be clear on the 3 points I listed out, the only thing I can personally attest to is that the pedophile in question is indeed a pedophile, as we kicked him out of my former group many years ago once we found out and that he somehow found a landing spot inside of Goons despite them knowing full well what he was.


He denies everything, that is his MO.

The chatlogs of him calling the victim of harrasment a "bitch who could not find the block button", "Wounded bird", "Amber heard" etc is sufficient to want him out of power and indeed the game.

I do believe most of the other accusations - but won't claim anything is definitely true.


It indicates a change of culture that Goonswarm would care about that sort of thing enough to encourage Mittani to exit instead of (at best) just taking it as part of the old "dogs will be dogs" internet culture.

(Not a bad change; just observing the turning of the wheel).


In the end, Goonswarm is nothing but a tool for him. A way to make money and to feed his ego. I highly doubt this is anything but a tactic to move away from the limelight while maintaining tight control. The way Eve's mechanics work, he has to maintain that control or some fuckwad could tear it all down overnight.


In game power has been moved already (The executor corp is under the control in game of Xttz, and Goonswarm under TheAdj).

I don't doubt that the majority of the coalition would happily welcome him back though, the people outraged at his behaviour are loud and passionate but the minority for sure


So that begs an interesting question. EVE Online has one of the most nakedly Machiavellian power structure social dynamics I can think of in any multiplayer game. The combination of hypercapitalist core rules mechanics and hands off approach from moderators makes it a game where power is power.

If the people outrage it his behavior are a minority, why is he leaving? They must be a minority holding a big enough stick to prevent being simply ignored or marginalized.


It is an interesting question to which I do not have a good answer. I personally expected him to take a couple months off to "reflect", ban the troublemakers, and come back refreshed.

To quote: > the_mittani: and just like last time, i will simply put heads on spikes over and over again until order is restored, with the occasional oops sorry about that one overly enthusiastic apology thrown in

I believe the real issue was his name being dragged through the mud on Reddit and SomethingAwful etc. I think his monetisation was also being attacked - sponsors of shows and so on simply do not like being associated with this sort of stuff. I still simply do not know what was going through his head. But stepping down for "the greater good" and playing the victim may simply be a tactic to let things die down


Former unimportant Eve player active 2008-2017, involved in most of the big wars of that time-frame. I met Mittens for the first time in meatspace in 2011, before he built much of his influence and infamy, but the impression I got back then mirrors your bias and was confirmed on many later occasions. Ironically he himself comes to the same conclusion, if a decade late: "... has resulted in [] my presence being a net negative for the wider tribe". For the record I think that Goons are still a net positive for Eve despite the many overstepped limits, but that is debatable.


Also have met Mittens IRL a number of times and know many people who have spent significantly more IRL time with him than myself: Absolutely nothing alleged shocks me. I can't say I've seen him do any of these things, but I'm also 100% able to square it with my experiences with him.


There would be no point in him starting from scratch with a new identity. It wasn't the game he liked, it was the notoriety. Most people in EVE Online at this strata aren't even really "playing" the game, its all metagame at that point.


As a former notorious EVE player myself, yes this is correct.

I've done everything from old school POS wars to Titan kills to running multiple types of production empires to living in wormholes and being a wealthy (trillions ISK, back when the best way to get wealthy was through RP) feared low-sec space pirate (this one was my personal endgame).

Once you've reached one of EVE's endgame scenarios it's basically impossible to continue playing and get any enjoyment out of the game.

You might try, but it's like chasing your first high. It's never as good.

And knowing Mittens and what he's like...yeah he's not playing anymore unless it's waiting for the heat to die down and coming back in a year or two.


Eve is also notoriously difficult to "start from scratch". I'm sure someone like him could still maintain secret contacts that could help him out, but even then it's an insanely difficult, if not nearly impossible, effort to get even remotely close to where his old character would have been. And that's just in terms of stats and resources. Relationships are a whole different story, and a critical part of success in Eve.

It's not like WoW where the delta between someone that started the game in 2005 and someone who started in 2020 isn't that far apart.

Someone who started Eve in 2005 would be like a member of the Rothschild dynasty while someone who started in 2020 would be at best, some low level corporate middle manager.


He can have my character. 2005 with 12 years worth of skill points.


Former EVE player, and member of SA. Mittens is a complete narcissist and all around horrible human being.

I've been out of the loop for a long time now, but even from the title of the post I instantly thought "I guess something finally caught up to mittens."

I very much doubt he leaves the game/metagame in any meaningful way as even way back when I played it was speculated that a non insignificant amount of his lively hood was derived from his activities around the game/metagame.


Goonfleet has always loved their charismatic fascist leaders though. A whole lot of the early GF propaganda was veiled Triumph of the Will.


It’s funny that he’s complaining about his smears against personal life when in one of GoonSwarms conflicts with Band of Brothers they pioneered mocking the BoB leader for being a repairman irl


According to urban legend, BoB once found the physical location of an enemy fleet commander and cut their power.

Only a few years back, a director of CO2 got banned for threatening to cut off a hand of a diplomat that had taken most of their wallet.

The Mittani himself, mentioned here, also almost got permanently banned for a encouraging the audience to tell a Goon victim to kill himself on the Alliance Panel at Fanfest.[1] So it's pretty rich of him to complain about toxicity in the game.

It's not a very friendly game.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbYNLmtAMAw


It's a very unfriendly game which really teaches you to be the type of cut-throat that doesn't set you up well for real life.

I wish I realised that earlier to be honest


Yeah, I liked the idea of the game and played it for a bit when I realized that the idea of "don't trust anyone ever" was exhausting for me.


Absolutely. There's a reason people call pushing the delete button on your profile and biomassing your capsuleer "Winning EVE."


It makes sense, since it's not "real" that people would act in whatever way favors their own interests the most


I'm not sure why you'd say that when all of my examples where of situations in which it extended way too far into "real".

Quite frankly, CCP used to play really hard into the "EVE is real" and "harden the fuck up" trope[1], it's not too surprising some people take it too far.

[1]: Literally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q


Sorry, I should have been more clear that I was speaking as the devil's advocate, in hopes that it would shine some light on the mindset of people like that.

I played Rust for a while and I still keenly remember the feeling of outrage and betrayal that the fort that I had spent nearly an hour on getting raided while I was logged out. It was a lark for the people to pop in and pillage my supplies but for me it was just as frustrating as if my real property had been stolen.


I mean the subreddit has for years been taken over by neo conservatives that basically use it as a means for testing how propaganda works.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nazimadakli/status/14190434038919...


Hypocrisy is a way of life, if not a requirement, as far as EVE politics go.


For people who likes the kind of backstabbing thrilling behind the scene diplomacy wackiness that ooze from Eve, but can't really get involved in it for whatever reason (most often being time, motivation, or the fact that 99% of eve gameplay is actually more excel than malta conference), I highly recommend you give Neptune's Pride [1] a try.

It's not at all the same kind of game (it's a "turn by turn" 4x game where turn passing is tied to actual time in the real world), but it's really simple and at its core is based on the same thing: diplomacy through the simple but effective messaging system between the players.

A game last days, but will only require you to play a few minutes every dozen hours or so (sending fleets to attack, etc ... Will take literal days to happen, which seems strange at first until you realize it's to give the diplomacy center stage, giving real people with real lives the time and opportunity to exchange and plan and backstab together.

It's also extremely fun with friends, in a mario kart's blue shell kind of way. 90% of the fun is the pretenses and backstabs, don't play with friends who don't like losing, nor with people who let themselves lose on purpose if against their SO etc ... or the experience drops significantly.

[1] https://np.ironhelmet.com/#landing


another one game that's similar to EVE in some ways but different from what you're describing here (that I found from an HN comment 73 days ago) is Prosperous Universe https://prosperousuniverse.com it's kind of a cross between EVE and Factorio but glacially slow. there's no combat or graphics (aside from some fancy but not really useful map screens), so it's really just a game of logistics/planning/economy, and the amount of enjoyment you get from the game depends almost entirely on how much fun you find spreadsheet-making ("a lot" for me). I got some friends to play with me and it's been really fun to coordinate our slowly-expanding galactic empire.


The original game like this was/is the diplomacy board game. Definitely great fun if you play with people who don't take things too personal, but at the same time serious enough to really play. Also being a board game and personal interactions excludes much of the online virol.


This is the most sanitized version of what actually happened. Isn't he being investigated by the IRS?


...allegations of abuse? Man no one has been in a Goon comms channel if they're shocked by this.


End of an era. Met and worked with him a few times. He was certainly an interesting character.


I mean at the end of the day Goonswarm was entertainment for Mittens. So when imaginary spaceships become unfun, its probably time to go.

He was far better than Remedial was.


Was it just entertainment though? I recall hearing years ago that he was making a not-insignificant amount of money via EVE, whether through legitimate (e.g. themittani.com news site) or illegitimate (e.g. selling ISK or supercaps) means.


He was previously a DC lawyer who FIREed and moved out to WI. I think he made a little money but I don’t think it was anything other than toy money.


"Yeah, being an attorney wasn't cut throat enough so I decided to become a Space Pirate King..."


I've never played EVE Online, and considering how in-depth it apparently is, i am thankful for it.


I spent time in Goonfleet many years ago and generally did stuff like protect mining fleets. The actual work involved in maintaining access to null-sec space, running stations, etc and being part of a large in-game organization required an almost martial level of discipline from a scheduling standpoint.

It was fun for quite a while but eventually it became like a second job and I moved on.


Could this be a ruse, a distraction, part of a plan ?


Finally "winning" after all these years!


this time, we send our regards...


About time mittens was removed. So much of this was known for years but ignored because of his status outside the world of EVE Online, and thus the absolute position of power he crafted for himself within GSF.


[flagged]


I have a question. Is "woke" actually synonymous with cancel culture or "extremism"? because when I became aware of the term it just meant more or less socially aware, particularly to the struggles of minorities. Then I tuned out for awhile and when I noticed it again it seemed to be a pejorative people like Tucker Carlson use to drum up fear that anyone who said their friend was gay in the 90s is going to prison. For instance my father in law frequently talks about how he can't say anything because of the woke people, if I ask him what he can't say he has no answer and if I ask him who's going to hold him accountable if he said it, he can't answer that either - but holy shit is he scared of the woke people.

Anyway when I see people use words like "woke" or "transgenderfication" (of the children, of course) it really tips their hat. I guess my curiosity is did the woke people tarnish the word, or did opposing media re-define it?


> it just meant more or less socially aware, particularly to the struggles of minorities. Then I tuned out for awhile and when I noticed it again it seemed to be a pejorative people like Tucker Carlson use to drum up fear

These are the same thing, and for the same reason.


>did the woke people tarnish the word, or did opposing media re-define it?

It’s the latter.

“Woke” is mostly used nowadays as a pejorative by folks who are worried that their “tits or GTFO”-style post histories might actually have real consequences and are involved in a harried attempt to rewrite contemporary social mores in their favor.

It is also used (in the US) by naive, misguided, and mostly older people that are genuinely trying to signal some sort of connection to progressive politics, generally with limited knowledge of them.

Either way it’s a word that I personally use as a sign not to engage with the person speaking because either way it’s somebody asking for (or demanding) a free education about stuff they refuse to google.


> it really tips their hat. I guess my curiosity is did the woke people tarnish the word, or did opposing media re-define it?

A bit of both, IMO.


You're not going to get a useful answer to that question, just lots of people from both sides of the argument caricaturing and insulting their opponents (as you will see if you peruse the responses).


> because when I became aware of the term it just meant more or less socially aware, particularly to the struggles of minorities.

That is what it meant; i.e., that you open your eyes and start seeing the injustice around you. And then the right-wing media machine found out about the term and turned it into a catchall insult, like they do with so many terms they appropriate from the left.

It's just the latest iteration of what happened with phrases like "trigger [warning]" or "politically correct."


The funny thing is "woke" has the same connotation as "redpilled." The idea being you see the world the way it really is while everyone else is oblivious.


The red pill, of course, being estradiol and the blue pill being an antidepressant. The Matrix was a film about discovering you are not who the world told you to be by two trans women.


That's an interpretation of the Matrix some blogger made up. As far as I can tell the directors never said the pills represent estradiol.

It strikes me as a real stretch. The effect of taking the red pill is like an LSD trip.


Say what you want about the actual pills, but the film is canonically a trans metaphor. https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-53692435

LSD by the way does not wake you up from hallucinations. It causes them. Are you referring to psychedelics raising one's sense of connection to the world around them?


I'd say your interpretation of that quote is wrong. She says the original idea was a trans metaphor not the movie she actually made. She even says the world was not ready for that, i.e. it's not the movie she made. Also I would expect the films to be a metaphor for several things, otherwise all that stuff about free will and predetermination is a huge waste of time.

I don't know if you've seen the fourth movie but it basically makes fun of attempts to interpret the Matrix as a metaphor like this, with a trans metaphor being one of several interpretations of the Matrix Trilogy pitched by the wacky Warner Brothers marketing department. This is not played as a serious interpretation. It seems awfully reductive to say the movies just mean that one specific thing. (Incidently in the video game Matrix Path of Neo the Wackowskys break the fourth wall and discuss the theme of choice versus fate.)

LSD causing hallucinations is the mainstream interpretation of reality. The characters in The Matrix believe the things they see after they take drugs are real things, and the things that they see without drugs are the fake things. But the things they see on the drug visually resembles a bad acid trip.


[flagged]


I hope you are not actually mistaking your urge to dunk on people you despise with a reasonable definition of a term. I mean, dunk away, I don't mind. But I hope you know that's what you're doing. :)


"woke", at its base, just means recognition of the struggles of minorities, both racial minorities and gender/sexual minorities (LGBT+).

However, there's a VERY LOUD yet VERY SMALL minority of people that try to "out-woke" everyone else. On reddit, I recently had someone tell me not to use the acronym "POC" and to spell out "People of Color" because POC can also mean Piece of Crap. I whole-heartedly rejected their comment and told them it was a deliberate bad faith interpretation in an attempt to "out-woke" me and it just made them insufferable. I asked if they scolded electronics engineers for referring to a "surface-mount device" as an "SMD" because "SMD" can also mean "suck my dick", or if they even go a step further and say they shouldn't use the word "mount" because that can be a sexual term which might offend sexual assault victims.

They deleted their comment.

Back on topic, "woke" has also been hijacked by right-wing media to also refer to "Cancel Culture". CC is also another problematic term, because to some, CC just means "responsibility for your shitty opinions", while to others, it means "simple disagreement". The problem of course is what makes an opinion "shitty" is incredibly subjective. Certainly, someone who is very vocal about how they consider any non-white race to be inferior is shitty, and I think deserves to get "cancelled". But some people have genuinely learned and improved themselves, and yet people still try to cancel them.


[flagged]


> "we shouldn't give 11 year olds puberty blockers, wait until they are 18 to choose"

the puberty blocker exists solely to give them the time to choose, it's not the same thing as transitioning itself. Denying puberty blockers is letting nature force the choice.

Along with your suggestion that "3 year olds are being given genital surgery" as another commenter highlighted - like it or not you are repeating bigoted conservative talking points here and I think what you are seeing is not "I have to walk on eggshells to avoid upsetting people" but people's valid and legitimate negative reactions to bigoted opinions that you are espousing.

For the record, just because OAN is even more reactionary than you, doesn't make the things you're saying centrist, they're still reactionary and bigoted.


> 3 year olds are being given genital surgery

This is not my suggestion, I am saying that this is what the right think what the left wants for everyone. I know this is not a thing that happens and is complete bullshit.

> For the record, just because OAN is even more reactionary than you, doesn't make the things you're saying centrist, they're still reactionary and bigoted.

Apologies if you misunderstood, I should have rephrased it, this is mostly what people complain about during off-corpnet casual team chats and whatnot re: eggshells. I don't think that they are/were reasonable opinions myself and I am fully aware that giving puberty blockers after puberty is rather pointless, for example.

I am Indian but I speak English as a second language and it feels like a lot of older hyper-conservative coworkers are more at ease to openly discuss these things with someone they think is from the same background and in their language.


>the puberty blocker exists solely to give them the time to choose, it's not the same thing as transitioning itself. Denying puberty blockers is letting nature force the choice.

Giving puberty blockers (steroids) to children cause irreversible developments (undersized genitalia, irreversible higher pitched voiced, etc. to males) and absolutely should not be given. Not allowing children to go through puberty is a crime against their humanity.


Children go through puberty anywhere from 8 to 19. Generations ago, 16 to 18 was fairly common. Going through puberty late does not equal never going through puberty.


That's natural puberty according to their natural biology. Feeding them hormones to "pause" puberty is denying them their basic humanity to go through puberty naturally.


No medical treatment is natural. You know what's natural? Infant mortality. Nature sucks.

If you cared about these kids you would learn about why they want puberty blockers rather than suggesting we torture them by denying them medical treatment because of some concept of "natural".


>No medical treatment is natural.

Wrong. Giving water to a dehydrated person is a natural medical treatment. Your entire premise is now disproven.

>You know what's natural? Infant mortality. Nature sucks.

You know what's natural? Children having identity crises and not being mentally developed enough to know the long term effects of their decisions. Nature sucks.

>If you cared about these kids you would learn about why they want puberty blockers rather than suggesting we torture them by denying them medical treatment because of some concept of "natural".

If you cared about these kids you would learn about why they want puberty blockers rather than suggesting we torture them by pumping them full of steroids to destroy their bodies and denying them their natural development because it's politically expedient.

"Treating" "trans children" is a crime against humanity. Much the same way lobotomies, FGM, etc. are.


"...not being mentally developed enough to know the long term effects of their decisions"

This is false. You question ask a minor about the consequences of a procedure and judge if they understand it by how they respond.

But it's clear you, personally, are not capable of doing such a thing because you would instead prefer gaslighting.


>This is false

Wrong. That is true.

>You question ask a minor about the consequences of a procedure and judge if they understand it by how they respond.

OK groomer. This is the same logic pedophiles use. Children are not legally nor mentally capable of making such decisions. Full stop.

>But it's clear you, personally, are not capable of doing such a thing because you would instead prefer gaslighting.

Projecting about gaslighting is one of the signs of grooming. You're right, I'm not capable of doing something as morally bankrupt like grooming children.


This is an insane worldview. I hope you’re around to see the mental health issues this will cause on children who had their natural development destroyed by pharmaceutical companies and dumb parents.

There’s nothing bigoted about this, and you’re just using that language as a political weapon to demonize and guilt dissent.


GP is not expressing those views personally but narrating views held by people who believe they need to walk on eggshells all the time lest they get in trouble with the “woke police.”


fyi /r/eve is an extension of the /r/conservative subreddit.


> making 3 year olds trans and giving them genital surgery

This of course does not happen, which is what makes it such a perfect bogeyman.


Exactly. In Umberto Eco's "A Practical List for Identifying Fascists", the one that is be being displayed here is this:

    The enemy is both weak and strong. “[…] the followers must be convinced that they can overwhelm the enemies. Thus, by a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
https://www.faena.com/aleph/umberto-eco-a-practical-list-for...

"Libs" (or whatever the villain of the day is called) are so terrifying we're cutting off baby penises with a lawnmower in full view of our cheering public but so weak that all we need is a single person to call us out in a nasty email to completely defeat us (please send money to our campaign against lawnmowing baby penises).


Heuristics like this seem pretty useless. It's true for basically all political rhetoric. The right is made up of dumb, weak incels living in their parents basement but also are going to usher in an era of totalitarian control and fascism.

It seems pretty natural to denigrate your enemies as well as play up the fear depending on your goals at that particular moment.


I emphatically disagree with you. All arguments are not equal.

If I had to boil it down to a single line the issue with "the right" from "the left"'s side, it would be that the right is "intentionally heartless".

Not stupid or intentionally fascist, just, intentionally heartless. That's a far cry from the Right's rhetoric of "Commie loving tree hugging libs" and that "We should kill them all and let God sort them out", etc. I'm sure the reality is far more distressing than my imitation thereof.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/12/11/hatred-li...


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And here we see that it's blasphemous to even point that out.


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I relent the loss of Tumblr because these tired takes on "chuds" and "literal nazis, tell ya whut" were mostly contained there and the shitty subreddits. Now they're getting posted on HN :(.


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I don't have anything useful to add to this conversation (apparently) so I'll see myself out.


If by "woke style extremism" you mean "people upset that a guy who was banned from one of the most hard core trolling forums for repeated child pornography offenses was given a position of power in the organization" then you're right on the money.


>most hard core trolling forums for repeated child pornography offenses was given a position of power in the organization

He was a reddit mod?!?


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It was literally in the article. Apparently I'm the only one in this thread who bothered to read it.


Something Awful has it’s dark corners for sure. I did not encounter this personally but have no doubts it exists after playing with that community for two years.


the hell we don't


A lot has changed in the world since when Eve Online was a new game.

There are a lot of things I (and many of my friends) have said in in-game chatting without any hesitation back then that would not fly in today's more politically correct and sensitive world, even taking into account the gaming community's brasher nature. I'm sure I'm not the only one.


Mittens himself has driven a lot of the toxic environment in Eve. He's no innocent flower here and it's laughable to paint the criticism he gets as anything but justified. Unfortunately, Goonswarm has a lot of toxic people at all levels (but particularly in management positions) and that won't change just because he's leaving.


In Eve, doxxing individual players and using the information in propaganda campaigns is a big part of politicking. Mittens himself has certainly carried out his fair share of it. Twitch streamers might be where 'swatting' became popular, but eve corps have been using it to gain competitive advantages in the game for far longer. Getting someone to permanently quit the game is seen as a win condition.

Furthermore, nullsec entities in Eve are HUGELY egocentric, as people collect around leaders that bring them fun. This means that pretty much everyone who is doing well at the game is going to end up with a TMZ paparazzi situation. Mittens handles his pretty well, but anyone would get ground down by it eventually.

What I'm trying to say is that the community has a very high tolerance for BS and it will take more than posting some chat logs to get him to quit.

Anyways the reason this one was a bridge to far is because it seemed he was covering for a pedophile for like a decade. https://groomswarm.wtf/


So we can’t even hold literal child pornographers against people now ‘cos it’s ‘woke’?

Seems to me more like consequence of actions than anything else.


> Digging past transgressions and putting them on display, intense dislike of personal style elevated to the point of mass hatred, that sort of thing.

Oh you mean like Kiwi Farms?


No no no, that's just good fun trolling.


Amazing that they're downvoting you to oblivion.

The same people who caused this man to leave the game have been harassing someone IRL over their personal politics and sending letters to their employer.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/vzv75n/you_guys_really...


Mittani started all that bullshit. He rose to power by harassing his perceived in-game enemies in real life.

It's hypocritical, and actually quite disgusting, to call him a victim considering how many people's lives he tried to destroy over a video game.


What does being woke mean to you?


Humorless, thin-skinned and boring.


I mean, if they cause The Mittani to win EVE, that's easily the least boring thing to happen in the game in about three years.


That's what you think of it, but what does it mean to be woke?


Why don't you tell us?


I’d like my original question answered first


Not always but it can happen. I recall that a corp learned one titan pilot lived in the neighborhood of another titan pilot and his corp tried to convince him to cut their access to power right before a raid started on the titan. Since titans remain in the game when you disconnect, this means that the ship would be defenseless.

The amount of opsec that Goons (and others) would practice is intense as well.


Ah you were talking about “woke extremism”… I think that word is overused but Eve is a in love and war all is fair kind of game.


Eve Players aren’t woke. They have an internet culture make up where Jew jokes, racism, etc are regularly used


The successful have one rule, don't get caught. They got caught and get to be removed for it.

Cancel culture is just an extension of that to lower classes.


What's woke-like extremism in this case?




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