> He and Hernstein advocated for abandoning affirmative action, and divert funds away from supporting low IQ groups (e.g. welfare) into supporting high performance groups.
There are perfectly good reasons to support these policies that have nothing to do with being racist.
> This is true, however the reason for this difference, and whether it is of societal significance, is up for debate.
Agreed! But calling people with different conclusions on that question 'racist' is not debating. It is giving yourself an excuse not to have the debate, while doing nothing to convince the other side.
And Murray does not have a strong opinion about how much of group differences are attributable to genes. He only argues that they very likely play a role.
> I would argue that we should care more about SAT scores then IQ scores because SAT scores are actually used as an admission metric
Why do you think those are two separate things? There is not one single IQ test. Any test that is g-loaded is an IQ test. IQ is simply a way of representing a score on any test that measures intelligence. The SAT is an intelligence test, and you can represent scores on that test as a quotient.
> Lewontin's Fallacy is a silly path to go down.
It's a perfectly reasonable path considering you commit the same fallacy.
> Group difference down these groups is way more interesting study then down gene make-up.
There's no reason we can't study all of these things, including genetic differences in population.
> If you want to see for your self how poor the scientific quality of The Bell Curve is, I recommend you read the sources it cites. Of particular interests is the meta-alalyses by R. Lynn (1991) [Here is a summary...
I'll check out the video at some point, but it is very long so I'll have to find the time. A substantive critique would be appreciated.
Murray's most recent work on human diversity, Human Diversity, is also very much worth checking out, as it does far more to address issues, like race, that people seem to be so upset about.
If you want to hear from the perspective of someone who actual works in population genetics, you should checkout what Razib Khan has had to say on Murray's work.
The fact that genetic differences exist has nothing to say whether they matter. You can study those genetic differences all you want (like Razib Khan does[1]) but if you can’t show that these differences manifest in different behavior (which Murray tries to and has so far been unconvincing) then those differences don’t matter in the context of psychology. You can study it anyway, but you might just be looking for something akin to Russell’s Teapot[2]. While we don’t have conclusive evidence that genetics contribute a significant proportion of our behavior, then there is no reason to speculate around it as if it is a fact.
Now lets talk about Lewontin's Fallacy. First I’d like to note that Lewontin's Fallacy is not a logical fallacy. It is even debated whether we should call it a “fallacy” at all[3], especially when the metrics we use to group by are suspected to be biased. IQ is by no means a clean metric and we will never completely clear it of bias (even in a world were g was a proven fact, which it isn’t by a long shot). So if your metrics are biased and you measure a small group difference where inner-group difference is much larger then the inter-group difference, and the science is not conclusive in how exactly how this difference materialized in difference in behavior. Then applying Lewontin's Fallacy is silly at best (but much more likely it is disingenuous). If you insist that we should make a taxonomical distinction on such blurry lines your are just making an arbitrary choice. There are millions of equally blurry metrics which you could draw a million different lines. Why do you insist on IQ?
Finally lets talk about the difference between IQ and SAT. First of all Frey’s assertions that they are the same thing is actually a rather fringe on in the scientific community. They don’t correlate perfectly, they don’t even share a distribution, and they are designed to measure a different thing. The SAT authors repeatedly reject this:
> name change was meant "to correct the impression among some people that the SAT measures something that is innate and impervious to change regardless of effort or instruction.
1: Although from Razib Khan’s published works it looks like he is more interested in pumping the hype for consumer genomics and the exploring the cat genome then exploring human behavior through genetics, so he should not be taken as an authority—nor even an expert—in the intersection of genetics and psychology. I’m not aware of much research in this intersection, but if you want the intersection of biology and psychology, then the field of neuroscience has plenty. When I was studying the field over 10 years ago V. S. Ramachandran and Patricia Churchland were the big shots. Though this is largely off topic.
3: Although I’d like to say that a group difference with small effect size is probably still worth studying in the field of medicine. Especially in subfields where most of our studies are conducted on a single demographic of white abled bodied men.
I realized that I’ve shifted the goal post quite a bit here. From “The policies advocated by Hernstein and Murray can be considered racist” to “IQ is a scientifically uninteresting construct”. Or as you say—quite truthfully to be honest:
> But calling people with different conclusions on that question 'racist' is not debating. It is giving yourself an excuse not to have the debate, while doing nothing to convince the other side.
I did this a little on purpose (as you have noticed) because frankly the latter is a much more interesting debate (which I merge from a nibling thread I started where I made this claim).
So to address your concerns that I claim Hernstein and Murray are racist in their book The Bell Curve. First, I never called them racists directly. I claimed that their policies can be considered racist in the cultural context of 1990s american politics. I also claim that they blatantly and unapologetically use racist studies to back up their claims. So they are racists by association, and their work is racist as a result.
If they had made a convincing argument about the heritability of IQ and it’s importance in explaining behavior, and omitted citing blatant works of scientific racism to back up their case, I would be more hesitant in calling this work racist. I would just say that their conclusion is wrong. That we would need to make accommodations for people with lower IQ. We should keep affirmative action despite it being counter-productive simply because it is the right thing to do, etc.
However they did make a very unconvincing case that this g-factor explains the group difference in intelligence between groups. And they did cite racist studies to back up their case. And on top of that they used rhetoric to advocate for conservative policies which falls in line with what racists used at the time.
So to summarize my views on this less interesting debate. I consider Hernstein and Murray’s policy proposals in The Bell Curve to be racist because a) they use an unconvincing argument based on racist studies to advocate for set of policies, which b) were widely shared by other people at the time which were doing so because of their own racist beliefs. However you are of course free to disagree with my conclusion, although I hope you can see that these two premises for that conclusion have some reason.
There are perfectly good reasons to support these policies that have nothing to do with being racist.
> This is true, however the reason for this difference, and whether it is of societal significance, is up for debate.
Agreed! But calling people with different conclusions on that question 'racist' is not debating. It is giving yourself an excuse not to have the debate, while doing nothing to convince the other side.
And Murray does not have a strong opinion about how much of group differences are attributable to genes. He only argues that they very likely play a role.
> I would argue that we should care more about SAT scores then IQ scores because SAT scores are actually used as an admission metric
Why do you think those are two separate things? There is not one single IQ test. Any test that is g-loaded is an IQ test. IQ is simply a way of representing a score on any test that measures intelligence. The SAT is an intelligence test, and you can represent scores on that test as a quotient.
> Lewontin's Fallacy is a silly path to go down.
It's a perfectly reasonable path considering you commit the same fallacy.
> Group difference down these groups is way more interesting study then down gene make-up.
There's no reason we can't study all of these things, including genetic differences in population.
> If you want to see for your self how poor the scientific quality of The Bell Curve is, I recommend you read the sources it cites. Of particular interests is the meta-alalyses by R. Lynn (1991) [Here is a summary...
I'll check out the video at some point, but it is very long so I'll have to find the time. A substantive critique would be appreciated.
Murray's most recent work on human diversity, Human Diversity, is also very much worth checking out, as it does far more to address issues, like race, that people seem to be so upset about.
If you want to hear from the perspective of someone who actual works in population genetics, you should checkout what Razib Khan has had to say on Murray's work.