HN has some of the most pro-putin comments I see anywhere. These are established accounts with years of history talking about tech, so not Russian bots or whatever.
Not everyone is a paid shill. Lots of tech people are Russians and/or from Russia and support the war in Ukraine. Independent polling shows that the majority of people in Russia support the war, including the majority of the highly educated.
> Independent polling shows that the majority of people in Russia support the war, including the majority of the highly educated.
Is there any independent polling in Russia? Is it even possible?
I am under the impression the penalties for being against the war are severe and getting worse, to the point that even having messages on your phone about it could get you into trouble if stopped and searched by Moscow police.
Who in their right mind would answer a poll question honestly in Russia now?
There is also the question of whether Russians even know there's a war where Russia is the aggressor against a democratic state, and attacking civilians. There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening - instead they think there is no war, that it's a lie propagated by Western aggressors against Russia, and that Russian soldiers are in Ukraine to liberate the people.
If I were in Russia and asked my view, and highly educated for real on the actual circumstances, I'd answer that I was pro special military operation (what war?) because there's a chance the person asking is special police and I might end up in prison - or provoke an investigation which gets my friends into prison - if I say anything else.
> to the point that even having messages on your phone about it could get you into trouble if stopped and searched by Moscow police
Sounds ridiculous, like a half-fake unnuanced broken-phone twisted misrepresentation.
> There is also the question of whether Russians even know there's a war where Russia is the aggressor against a democratic state, and attacking civilians. There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening - instead they think there is no war, that it's a lie propagated by Western aggressors against Russia, and that Russian soldiers are in Ukraine to liberate the people
And this, kids, is the exact reason why we need a real pluralism of opinions and shouldn't rely on one-sided biased sources, as you can't even do a reality check.
> If I were in Russia and asked my view, and highly educated for real on the actual circumstances, I'd answer that I was pro special military operation (what war?) because there's a chance the person asking is special police and I might end up in prison - or provoke an investigation which gets my friends into prison - if I say anything else.
This image is cartoonishly ridiculous. Do you actually unironically believe in some sort of secret police, asking for your opinion on war? Seriously?
Everyone in Russia knows there is a war and no one really "supports" it. But enough people somewhat understand reasons for it, or rather just blame incompetent politicians from all sides.
A lot of people obviously don't believe the "attacking civilians" part, simply because it's an overly convenient propaganda narrative and also a lot of video evidence of this are old recycled videos from attacks on Donetsk, that Russians had already seen before, having been in the loop much longer than average Westerner.
There is actually the question of whether Westerners even know that there has already been 13k bodies death toll before the invasion, or that Ukraine actually incorporates neonazi rhetorics and symbolics in their National Guard (google Azov Battalion)
Lots would laugh over calling Ukraine "democratic", given the coup, the dismantling of opposition (both in politics and media) and the "ukrainisation" laws. Most consider Ukraine to be just as oligarchy as Russia, but with a more ochlocratic spin, rather then autocratic.
Read the comments, not just the headline. It sounds like what many people would expect in any country tending towards dictatorship. If it's not happening, then of course, great. But it doesn't sound ridiculous.
>> There are by now many reports of people in Russia who simply don't believe that's what's happening
> And this, kids, is the exact reason why we need a real pluralism of opinions and shouldn't rely on one-sided biased sources, as you can't even do a reality check.
And thank you for contributing your own opinion. It could have done without the "that's ridiculous" etc. though.
Parents say things that children see are contradicted with their own eyes. The parents are, like your writing, dismissive, laughing it off, saying the other person is silly. Understandably, the children are distressed and think their parents are out of touch with reality.
In the West we all know large numbers of people who think naive things. So it's reasonable to think there can be plenty of Russians who think in that way too.
>> If I were in Russia and asked my view,
> This image is cartoonishly ridiculous. Do you actually unironically believe in some sort of secret police, asking for your opinion on war?
Russians leaving Russia in a hurry have said they were questioned at the airport by border guards about their views on the war, and being very afraid that if they give the wrong answers they won't be free to leave. There is certainly some asking about opinions on war going on.
Maybe it's too much to worry about secret police in some countries. But at least parts of Russia have a long history of secret police and good reasons for paranoia during the cold war. You cannot dismiss the re-emergence of that out of hand. We still remember the polonium-204 and recent Novichok poisonings by Russia in the UK, so we're inclined to think of Putin as still thinking that way.
So with that in mind, we were talking about "independent polls". That means phoning people at random, or similar. It's not that I'd expect some poller to be secret police, it's the 1% possibility that my answer might get processed somewhere with extremely bad consequences if I were frank and vocal with my answers. What would you think if someone you've never met or heard of phoned you at random, in Moscow, to ask your views on the war in the last few days?
The recently enacted anti-protest law with ridiculously long prison sentences shows there is a crackdown happening. We know the authorities like to hand out long sentences for holding the "wrong" views. Remind me, how long has Navalny been imprisoned so far?
"Alexei Navalny faces 15 more years in prison as new trial starts" (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/15/alexei-navalny...).
> It sounds like what many people would expect in any country tending towards dictatorship
> But it doesn't sound ridiculous
> It could have done without the "that's ridiculous"
You didn't get my point. It could not have done without "that's ridiculous" because it is ridiculous, unrealistic and does not withstand any real critisim. It doesn't matter if it meets someone expectations, because the image they are basing their expectations on is cartoonish. That's just not real life. It's like people in Russia who think that the US government forces parents to make their children transgender — completely unrealistic bs, based on exploiting one's ignorance and fears.
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60600487 "My city's being shelled, but mum won’t believe me"
> Parents say things that children see are contradicted with their own eyes. The parents are, like your writing, dismissive, laughing it off, saying the other person is silly. Understandably, the children are distressed and think their parents are out of touch with reality.
Why are you extrapolating and using a plural form for a singular case?
What exactly is wrong with "laughing it off"? The fact that this whole issue had captured your attention only a few weeks ago, doesn't mean it's the case for everybody else. What reaction do you expect, that people would get emotional like it's day 1 and not actually year 8? Especially when we are talking about older people and not some zoomers, who had just recently pulled their head from the sand and comfort of debilitating social media.
And in any case, if this lady still has civil communication lines, then sorry, but that's not a real shelling. Real shelling looks like Belgrade in 1999.
> In the West we all know large numbers of people who think naive things. So it's reasonable to think there can be plenty of Russians who think in that way too.
It is extremely chauvinistic point of view, based on the idea that you yourself is well informed in not naive, and everyone else is just a fool.
In real life people have different opinions because they have a different perspective and prior knowledge, not because they are somehow less then you are.
> But at least parts of Russia have a long history of secret police and good reasons for paranoia during the cold war.
Exactly what "long history of secret police" are you talking about that in your eyes make Russia stand out against other parts of human history and make "good reasons for paranoia"?
> it's the 1% possibility that my answer might get processed somewhere with extremely bad consequences if I were frank and vocal with my answers. What would you think if someone you've never met or heard of phoned you at random, in Moscow, to ask your views on the war in the last few days?
I will simply reiterate that the "fear of secret police" you are asserting here is not a real thing for real people. But I get how people who had never talked with real Russians and get all their image of it only from western media sources, as well as only western parts of the internet, would make such an opinion. I think you would like to talk more to real people instead of consuming pre-cooked opinions if you actually want to have at least somewhat realistic picture. Visit ru-net and some Russian web site's comment section at least once.
> You cannot dismiss the re-emergence of that out of hand
And yet I can and I will be as critical and as sceptical as I am in any other case.
> We still remember the polonium-204 and recent Novichok poisonings by Russia in the UK, so we're inclined to think of Putin as still thinking that way
First of all, who is "we"?
Secondly, just to remind you how REAL political assassinations (and not a publicity false flag circus) look like: https://t.me/dubinskypro/12275 -- a post from telegram channel of one of the members of Ukraine's ruling party.
> The recently enacted anti-protest law with ridiculously long prison sentences shows there is a crackdown happening
You were duped by propaganda. There is no "anti-protest" law, there is "anti-fakes" law. Before it, some bad actors were buying ads targeting Russian audience with propaganda, including fakes. Now large media companies operating in Russian jurisdiction had disabled targeting Russian audience altogether.
> We know the authorities like to hand out long sentences for holding the "wrong" views
> Navalny
You don't know much about Navalny apart his shallow heroic image in western media, do you?
Anecdotally, even if you say something like "I think sanctions will just hurt every day people who are just like me and you and probably just want to live a happy life without wars and not the people making the decisions to start war" people get incensed and call you a shill / bot / etc. It's a strange time.
There is no sociology in a dictatorship where everybody knows about repercussions of expressing an opinion that goes against their glorious leader's will.
What you’re seeing here is a place which is not 100% anti-Russia and recognizes that there are gray areas to anything. This is invaluable and anyone who values liberal democracies should support such discussion forums.
The problem is, many people only support liberal democracy and free speech when it suits them. This was very much visible when censoring and demonizing those that were criticizing vaccines or the policies of Western governments, it’s visible now too.
