I've owned a Model 3 for over a year. It's ok. I had a rough idea of what I was getting into but the amount of "software" problems I've run into...
Every software update breaks something.
The rear view camera sometimes just blacks out, requiring a soft reboot of the car.
Side cameras will just stop working in the middle of a drive.
The radio sometimes doesn't work. Requires soft reboot.
Speaker volume levels randomly maxing out.
Phantom breaking on empty highway on a perfectly clear day.
Trunk randomly opening in the middle of the night (seriously, multiple times). It's in a garage but wtf
Charger door cycling non-stop with nothing connected. Fix? Soft reboot.
Every time I've had to contact Tesla for anything (buying the car/service issues/wall charger issues) the people have been friendly but unbelievably disorganized.
It's a fun car to drive but there are some serious issues.
Your post reads like the old "if Microsoft made cars" joke --- I never thought "reboot the car" would become a reality. Maybe you just got a lemon, but looking at the general state of the software industry, I'm also not surprised. I could understand bugs in more "advanced" features like autopilot and such, but what you're describing mostly sounds like simple functionality that should've been perfected long ago. One would hope that automotive software is held to a higher standard.
If we're talking about the Model 3, wouldn't you also not be able to know your speed since the speedometer is on the center console? I feel like that's pretty significant for most drivers.
The main cluster reboots in 30 seconds or so, so you’re not without the speedo for long. The speedometer isn’t a safety-critical feature over that time period.
It is if you need to know the speed limit during that 30 seconds and it causes you to get into an accident. I've strongly felt like Tesla drivers were the biggest assholes on the road, and things like "how fast I'm going doesn't really matter" is a pretty good confirmation of that.
I have never been in a situation as a driver where I needed my speedometer to prevent me from having an accident. I also am perfectly capable of maintaining a steady speed for the 30 seconds it takes the car to reboot. I expect most drivers are. You can determine the speed of your car pretty accurately by looking at how fast you’re moving by objects outside of your car.
It’s perfectly legal to drive in a car without a working speedometer, and many people do.
I don't care about legality. I care about safety. And everybody assumes they're an above average driver. You should do everything possible to minimize accidents, otherwise you're not driving defensively.
One thing that fixed a lot of the "need a reboot" issues I was having was turning off Sentry mode at home. This allows the car to actually "deep sleep" where as before my car was humming along 24/7.
That would drive me up the wall. I mean, until recently I have driven 16-year old car with no cameras at all, but once you have something and it stops working, that is extremely annoying. Especially in the car, that makes you think - if that small thing does not work, what else should I expect to malfunction? Uncomfortable thought.
Also - not sure if it true - I heard that most Tesla controls are touch screen, and as a person who does not want to take eyes off the road, that probably would not work well for me. I could do almost everything during driving in fractions of a second without looking, purely with muscle memory.
> Also - not sure if it true - I heard that most Tesla controls are touch screen, and as a person who does not want to take eyes off the road, that probably would not work well for me. I could do almost everything during driving in fractions of a second without looking, purely with muscle memory.
Mostly true. Depending on which model you have you'll have varying level of controls on the steering wheel. (Think media control, whipers, cruise control, etc.) You also have decent support for voice commands, but I find that way too cheesy.
It's definitely not for everyone but I prefer the touch screen/clean dash look over traditional "cockpits".
The touch screen controls are mostly ok. I'm a huge proponent of knobs and switches as well but I've mostly been able to make due.
The two biggest issues with touch screen controls for me are windshield wipers and temperature.
You can turn on the wipers on the left hand stalk which is good for when some truck splashes your windshield and completely blinds you. The automatic wiper sensor is...not great.
I find the temperature controls hard to use without taking my eyes off the road. And the number of times I've accidentally turned on heated seats while trying to change the temperature...why on earth is that button so prominent?
Is yours a model year 2020 or an older used one you got last year? I haven’t really had any software issues and certainly no “phantom braking” over a i molar time period on a 2020. The Spotify integration initially sucked but has vastly improved with later updates.
My main quality complaint is the road noise. The tires just howl and the wind is loud at highway speeds. I wish I’d waited a few more months and I could have gotten the double pane glass.
2020. Phantom breaking is real and incredibly scary. I've heard reports that it is more likely near overpasses but every time it's happened to me I've been on an empty eight lane highway (thanks COVID traffic) with no overpasses in sight. I find myself rarely using autopilot in traffic because if it phantom breaks, I'm going to get rear-ended.
I just bought a Sony A90J TV for more than $4000, and I had to reboot it on my first day of usage, because it got stuck inside an application (Google TV based, Android TV was so much better so far).
1993 Mazda mx5 running a Haltech Elite 750 ECU - 1 software issue after a firmware update
My conclusion from that: 100% increase in problems with a car that has software updates. Which is about on par with any other device with a computer :)
On my Ford Sync 3 system, when I plug my phone in to use Android Auto the GPS sometimes goes haywire (the map keeps spinning in random directions like the car is drifting at sea out of control). Rebooting the phone doesn't fix it, only pulling over, turning the car off, and opening the door (so the infotainement system shuts down completely) fixes the issue. Based on this, I'm assuming that Android Auto gets its GPS from the car's GPS unit when plugged in, as the car GPS would have a better signal than the phone sitting down in the cup holder. If the phone isn't getting GPS signal from the car, then something the car is doing is seriously jamming the phone's GPS signal until the infotainment system gets rebooted.
For all of us who feel only the deepest love and affection for the way computers have enhanced our lives, read on. At a recent computer expo (COMDEX), Bill Gates reportedly compared the computer industry with the auto industry and stated, "If GM had kept up with technology like the computer industry has, we would all be driving $25.00 cars that got 1,000 miles to the gallon."
In response to Bill's comments, General Motors issued a press release stating: If GM had developed technology like Microsoft, we would all be driving cars with the following characteristics:
1. For no reason whatsoever, your car would crash twice a day.
2. Every time they repainted the lines in the road, you would have to buy a new car.
3. Occasionally your car would die on the freeway for no reason. You would have to pull to the side of the road, close all of the windows, shut off the car, restart it, and reopen the windows before you could continue.
For some reason you would simply accept this.
4. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine.
5. Macintosh would make a car that was powered by the sun, was reliable, five times as fast and twice as easy to drive - but would run on only five percent of the roads.
6. The oil, water temperature, and alternator warning lights would all be replaced by a single "This Car Has Performed An Illegal Operation" warning light.
7. The airbag system would ask "Are you sure?" before deploying.
8. Occasionally, for no reason whatsoever, your car would lock you out and refuse to let you in until you simultaneously lifted the door handle, turned the key and grabbed hold of the radio antenna.
9. Every time a new car was introduced car buyers would have to learn how to drive all over again because none of the controls would operate in the same manner as the old car.
10. You'd have to press the "Start" button to turn the engine off."
Paying full price to beta test a car for free while they work out the bugs on the fly and hope they don't break more things seems like a really bad purchase idea?
Not that gas cars are much better but is the "happiness" that people don't have to go a dealer and the fix is magically downloaded? Or something more than that?
Personally it would freak me out that every single thing is tracked and saved and sent to who knows who, forever. People like to argue there's no such thing as privacy but oddly they still have shades on their windows.
It is truly strange how much hate Tesla seems to get from people. I recently bought a model Y. It is not an exaggeration to say that it is the best car I have ever driven, or even been inside of.
1) It's fast (very fast).
2) It looks great.
3) The in vehicle display looks fantastic, and is extremely responsive. It feels like the difference between using an iPad or using a cheap ($50) android tablet from aliexpress.
4) The in vehicle speech commands are excellent.
5) The autopilot is excellent.
6) The mobile app is excellent.
If you are seriously confused as to why Tesla owners are so fanatical about their cars: go drive one.
It shouldn't surprise people that these vehicles are sold out for the near future. They're actually just that good.
I have wondered a lot, though: does that mean other people would love it too? Could it be that it's somewhat unusual (it is), and that its unique qualities are super clear to everyone, and so the people who buy it love it, and the people who choose not to buy it would indeed hate it?
(I've driven one for about 10 minutes. It was fine, and maybe I'd love it if I drove it longer. Lack of tactile controls for radio and AC are a big bummer, though.)
I think it’s like the difference between the iPhone and an Android. Lots of people will say there’s basically no difference, some will say the Android is better, some will say the iPhone is better. It depends what qualities you care about.
Teslas go fast, feature aggressive and opinionated design choices, and run bleeding edge software. If those are very important to you it will be an amazing and peerless experience. If you don’t care about them or prefer something more conservative, it may be an awful choice.
I seem to get a ton of compliments on it, at least (although that is likely more about the appearance than anything). And my friends who have ridden with me also seem to love it.
Hmm, re: tactile controls: these at least for me are replaced by the steering wheel controls and voice commands.
I wonder about the same thing in the context of the defects; it's perfectly possible to like (or, as some people put it: 'love') a car, while at the same time having issues with it.
Things don't need to be perfect to be likable, but I suppose if they get irritating or too inconsistent then that's where the common "unlikable" border starts.
If I were to buy one of the very-software-controlled cars right now, I'd expect that it would be imperfect, do some weird things, but at the same time be much better than my previous experiences.
I expected to hate the lack of tactile controls, and the lack thereof was one of the biggest things that kept me from buying one for a long time. I didn't realize that it had voice commands that worked well enough (for me) that touching the screen while driving is generally unnecessary, so that it was a moot point.
When I bought my 2000 Honda Insight, I was harassed, verbally assaulted and (in several cases) purposely run off the road. People were seriously offended by a hybrid back then. I warned everyone back then that rode in my car. My mother and future wife experienced it first hand.
I think there are 2 things going on with Tesla… the first is similar to what I went through and the second is simply jealous have-nots. You can criticize something you don’t prefer, but once you cross the line and harass/threaten, you’ve officially become a piece of shit.
I agree on all points. I've had my Model Y since August and it's, hands down, the best car I've ever owned (or driven). I loved re-building and driving my Porsche 914 and my old VW Golf GTI was great. I had an Audi A4 Quatro for 20 years that was my pride and joy. The MY outshines them all.
It's hard to put into words, but Tesla has built the future of automobiles today. It feels like everyone that ignores that is just hanging onto the past unnecessarily. Like modern plumbing was invented and they are still saying that an outhouse is fine and questioning why would you need to take a shower everyday. For those of us who have seen the future it's just ludicrous.
Now, I'm not saying that Tesla is perfect and there can be no improvements. Simply that Tesla has shown us the future and there can be no turning back. Electric cars are here to stay and ICE vehicles are relegated to history.
I would really like to get a Model 3, but with a few adjustments. First, I'd like to put in a dash full of physical buttons, dials, and switches so I'm not reliant on the touchscreen (so I could do things like adjust the wiper delay without taking my eyes off the road when it is raining). Second, I'd like to be able to open the door if a slight freezing rain keeps the window from rolling down (yes, the car has to roll the window down a bit for the door to open). Third, if the touch screen (which appears to be a consumer-rated part, not an automotive-rated part) goes out I'd like to still be able to drive the car (this goes back to the first item).
Another item (for me, although I recognize that it doesn't apply to others). Most of my daily trips (back when I commuted to work) were less than 50 miles per day. So I really don't need to haul around (and pay for) a 300 mile battery most of the time. But for times I do need it, I may need more than 300 miles. So I'd rather give up maybe 200 - 230 miles of battery range in exchange for a gas engine that would directly power the back wheels (while the electric powers the front wheels). This engine would only need enough horse power for cruising speed plus a bit of spare power, as the electric motor would be used for acceleration and the gas motor would be used only on longer trips (where the car would act like a traditional hybrid). This should be about an even exchange in weight and cost. I haven't seen any plugin hybrids that do this (where the gas can directly power the car, and have more than 50 miles range on the battery -- many phev cars (like the Volt) have the gas power a generator that drives the battery charge and electric motor, and others like the Ford ones have a small electric-only range.
Agree with most of this, but to rebut points 5 and 6:
5) I don't trust the cruise control at all. It will frequently disengage for no good reason (e.g. a car parked on the side of the road). If you don't have your foot on the accelerator (which you typically won't when in CC), the cark decelerates HARD suddenly with little time to respond.
Obvious fix: Option to disable "adaptive" part of cruise control, so it doesn't automatically disengage.
6) The app is kinda quirky. For example, if you open the "Charging" screen, the start/stop charging buttons jump up the screen slightly after it's done loading the list of superchargers. This frequently causes me to tap "Stop Charging" instead of "Start Charging".
Obvious fix: Offer Siri Shortcuts to all the car control functions in the app. That would be a killer use of shortcuts.
Cruise control is the absolute worst on my Model 3, I've had to stop using it on my most frequent highway route, Highway 1.
It will randomly stomp on the brakes as hard as possible, when there's a slight curve and a car in the other lane. It's terrifying to me and to all passengers. Completely unusable. (And still you will find me in other comments here saying it's my favorite car I've owned... there's a lot going on here I guess.)
Sorry but you misquoted me. Siri Shortcuts isn’t Siri.
It’s the iOS automation tool, and the context was controlling the car via the app in lieu of directly in their app, which isn’t something you do while driving.
This has not been my experience at all. I would say that cruise control is enabled for about 90% of my driving in the city, and nearly 100% on the highway.
I have had it brake hard when (for instance) somebody is turning into a driveway, so they come to a stop in the lane. But...I am still paying close attention, notice this before the car reacts, and lightly tap on the brake to temporarily disengage it. It has just become a part of driving the car.
The fact that you can say the voice command “open your butthole”, and the Charge port opens.... no other car company would ever do that. There is nothing like a Tesla
Exactly the same here. I recently got a Model Y in mid-January. It's by far the best car I've ever owned, the most fun to drive, the least stressful, and it just makes me smile every time I get in it. The interface and UI is incredibly intuitive.
I've even got Siri Shortcuts setup to do things like, "hey Siri, open trunk", "vent windows", "prepare for launch" (turns on heated seats/steering wheel, sets climate control, opens garage door based on the current wifi network, etc).
Everyone who test drives it falls in love with it, including one individual who began working to get out of his BMW X5 lease.
And I've had the privilege of driving higher-end German cars for years. There's absolutely no comparison to the Tesla; the Tesla is superior in every way.
Those 1..6 are probably my “important list of car features number 95 through 100”
Are there any annoyances in software? Does anything feel misplaced? What % of users report something rattling in the interior? What’s the road and wind noise? What’s the service costs and experience for standard service things like brake fluids, air filters? How is the build quality, especially the paint quality (I heard early Tesla models easily chipped big flakes)?
I would go even further on #3, it isn't like an iPad vs an Android tablet, because Android isn't bad, the only issue there would be hardware responsiveness. More like iPad vs a 2010 feature phone for most infotainment systems I've ever experienced.
Eh, they're not that great. The problem I have with cars is that most cars in 2021 should feel like a Tesla, but auto manufacturers are allergic to innovation for some reason. So much for Audi's "Vorsprung durch Technik."
When I sit in a Tesla, I'm like, cool feels like tech we should have had in cars over a decade ago? Great, I guess.
Honestly, if you took away the fact that it was an EV, and it had just as nice a computer in it, I'd be perfectly content.
I mean seriously, I can control my light bulbs with my phone, but I can't do it with my car?
Every time I sit in a Tesla my first though is "Ugh, couldn't they hire som Scandinavian designers at least?" because it is butt ugly. Also "goddamn this car feels like a toy, use some damn quality components instead!" The plastic-y feel does not belong in a car priced like a Tesla. Feel a Mercedes or BMW's plastic and then a Tesla's. Worlds apart.
My Model 3 was my first EV and while I like the Tesla features a lot, a huge portion of the love is being able charge at home and never go to a gas station (except for the occasion propane refill).
Once you get used to driving an EV (very smooth acceleration, silent, etc.) driving a gas car as a commuter is a bit less appealing.
It's my second EV. I got a BMW m235i in between my first EV and my Model 3, because my lease on the EV was up, I loved the performance of the EV, and wanted some range until I could buy a Model 3. I'm super concerned about climate, but don't drive much and thought that I could justify a 20-25mpg vehicle for a few short years...
The Model 3 is by far the best car I've had. Had multiple Pruises, a boat of a Chevy Impala, and driven lots of rental cars when on trips to places without public transit.
And despite all this, I'm still slightly ashamed to say it's my favorite car, because I'm no fan of Musk. Whatever team at Tesla is building this is great, but I have a feeling that it has very little to do with the singular person who wants to take credit...
I have a Model 3 after maybe 7-8 new Beemers and Lexuses over the years. The Model 3 is easily my favorite car. Everything else seems like a heavy, belching dinosaur. I don't say that so much from an eco POV, as the lightness of touch of stomping on the pedal with no noise, instant acceleration, no gear changes, just an unrelenting push back into your seat - it's just "lighter" and effortless. (I know it weighs a lot, that's not my point)
The software glitches are a nuisance at times, but how many OS releases behind do you keep your phone and PCs?
You drive a beamer? That seems odd (image search it). Perhaps it's that thing there the local language mistranslates something.
Regarding the 'everything else seems heavy'-feeling: that is exactly what it feels like to me as well. Not in some absolute term of 'therefore it is bad' but the difference is quite present. With a lot of cars it seems like driving it is an effort, and it is presented as being an effort and almost praised as a universally positive property of the car.
At the same time it's very weird to see the polarisation within the world of car users as if you can't have both. If I were to drive to get some job done, I really don't want to drive 'with effort' or have a car that 'shows some effort'. I want to get from A to B and do the thing I wanted to do, not 'work the car'. That is a strange realisation when you drive a lot of previous-generation cars and don't have an issue with that right up until the moment you get the ease of an EV that just 'does the thing'.
The article is about being happy with your car, not being a happy person in general. And specifically it measures the answer to the question "would you buy this car again?". It's unfortunate that the word "happy" is used in the title.
Wealthy people tend to demand much from their luxury purchases and have many options, so customer satisfaction is often lower for luxury brands, which is why Dodge outscored BMW, Volvo, Mercedes-Benz, and Lexus.
If you look at the list, you see Hyundai outscoring Porsche as Hyundai exceeded expectations more than Porsche.
But Tesla scored highest in terms of Tesla customers wanting to buy another Tesla as their next car. They do have good product people at Tesla and are doing a great job there. But I think part of it is that Tesla doesn't have many good rivals yet, so if you are wealthy and are determined to drive an electric car, you are much more likely to want to buy another Tesla whereas if you don't care about that then you have many more options.
From your third page, https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/what-is-the-aver..., the average price of a Hybrid/alternative energy car is arguably more relevant than comparing to all new cars. The avg price of a new of Hybrid/alternative energy car is $28k not $39k.
I think you honed in on the cost of a GT3, misunderstanding the point - to show that Tesla Model 3 Owners are not the Happiest Car Owners. The headline is false and also doesn't reflect the contents of the story.
The title of the OP seems pretty misleading. Neither the Consumer Reports article the author refers to, or the "owner satisfaction survey" that this in turn refers to, mention "happiness". The survey and the article seem to be about satisfaction with the car itself, rather than the owner's happiness in any general sense. Which is what I and, it seems from other comments, others have interpreted the title as.
Might be worth changing the title of ths post, too.
I think people are naturally going to be biased against Tesla because of all the misleading marketing. Even if the experience on its own is good, it's tainted by the way they (mainly Elon, but not exclusively) chose to sell it.
Also Tesla's go against pretty much everything that most car enthusiasts want. Personally that's why I'm biased against them, I hate having to use a touch screen to open the glove box, I hate having to press a capacitive button to switch on the turn signals, and I hate the attempt to take away the driving experience and control from the driver. Of course for the average person, a lot of those things are pros not cons.
Do you actually hate those things? Or do you just hate the idea of it and think you won’t like it? Unless you’ve opened a Tesla, or rented one for an extended period like a week or two, I’m not sure how you could decide you “hate” something.
A lot of people think they will hate things that Tesla has done because it’s just so different from what they’re used to. But most have never actually experienced it before they form their opinions.
I don't think I have to drive a Tesla to conclude I hate those things, because my experience with pretty much every other product I've used has consistently re-enforced how much I hate them. There is no circumstance in which I would prefer to have to use a touch screen to change my window wiper speed, or seat heater. And I still miss my old manual transmission civic because shifting gears is fun, and because it wouldn't try to cut power in the snow, or keep me in my lane when I am intentionally moving out of it. I don't even use cruise control or lane keep assist, I want to be the one driving.
Pretty well every time I interact with a device that tries to replace some physical controls with a touch screen, or automation or something I think it is a worse experience. Except for Phillips Hue, that is pretty awesome. Although I still have full control.
Agreed. I have a Model 3, love it, it's more fun than the BMW m235i that I got several years ago because of the insane "fun" reviews, and the Model 3 lets me put infant car seats in the back, has longer range than the m235i, the model 3 is good for bringing up the entire family to ski at Tahoe, and hasn't needed serious electrical repairs like the BMW.
Nonetheless, I hate Tesla for it's ridiculous marketing. I knew that the "Full self driving" was a lie, I hate all that there middle aged white dudes that seems to worship this car back when I first got it becuase I just want to drive a car not have awkward fawning conversations, and I hate that people believe all of Musk's other obvious BS about cars in tunnels, etc.
not a car person and I also haven't used a touchscreen based car yet, but yeah I think the lack of haptic controls at least in my mind would make it a lot harder to operate the radio, AC, etc. safely without having to take your eyes off the road. I don't get the appeal of the touchscreen beyond looking fancy.
I thought this would be a problem, but that has not been my experience so far.
I'm far more annoyed with other screens I've used in rental cars that still had physical buttons. If you have to glance at the screen to understand the current state in order to know which button to press, there's little advantage to the physical buttons.
Personal opinion, but my only gripe with Tesla is their low build quality (or at least, last time I checked one out), if I'm going to shell out that much money, I'd rather add a little extra and go with Porsche. But, I'm pretty happy with what they've done for the EV industry as a whole.
If you buy the base Taycan, you’ll have RWD only, the short-range battery, and be smoked by the comparable Model S from a stoplight. To get a Taycan with comparable features, you’ll need to spend something like $120k.
The build quality is fine. Tesla gets crazy press and gets extra scrutiny whereas others get a pass at this stuff.
Also I don’t why you’re comparing it to a Porsche when this article is about Model 3. There’s no Porsche you can buy for $40k. If you’re comparing it to a Model S or X, they don’t really have the same build quality issues that came up for Model 3 and Y since they’re made at much lower volume and cost much more.
My wife loves hers (Model 3 Performance), warts and all. She loves not having to get gas. Lots of other things, but generally it’s just a car she loves. Very fast, easy to move around in traffic, etc. she’s IoT even a Musk/Tesla fan girl. Just likes the car. I’m less impressed, but for the price it’s a great vehicle. I’m not even slightly surprised by this.
100% agree, you can look at the demographics of Tesla owners, in one study they have the highest average credit score for approved auto loan [1] and they have over 100k+$ yearly incomes[2]. Presumably, if you're in that category, you're generally happier with life.
This may well be true, even if you don't assume that Tesla owners are "smug" as some commenters are doing.
I've often thought that this is a major inherent problem with trying to estimate the "quality" of a product or service by taking the average of user reviews. If a product has high ratings, does that mean it's actually better than the alternatives, or does it mean it has flaws that cause the more discerning and critical consumers to gravitate to other options?
My understanding is recommendation systems can attempt to model and compensate for such biases. (At least, I recall seeing descriptions of how this was done way back in the Netflix Prize days.) But recommendation systems usually have their own issues with transparency and trustworthiness.
What I frequently want is the answer to a very simple question: of people who have tried both of two options I'm considering, what fraction prefer one over the other?
I have one for work (I do cartech related stuff) so it just kinda is what I need to drive now.
There's very few people who have the same kind of non-bias as I do here but then again my single opinion is merely anecdotal.
Given that sandwich, it's in the same class as an iPhone and beats headphones. A non-flattering description would be "tinsel and tack parading as luxury and class" but honestly, that was my impression of the porsche boxster and bentley continental as well.
My orientation for luxury is certainly non-existent. I feel such "touches" are inconvenient and grandiose.
But like with beats headphones or to a lesser extent, the iphone, this acts as a filter. This product (model 3) isn't for me and I'm fine with hyundai's ioniq or kona ev.
So yes, I think it's more a personality type that the car attracts than anything else. But again, sample size of 1 here.
I'd expect the same kind of happiness response from Ford F-350 owners.
I'm not sure general happiness => high customer satisfaction ratings on consumer reports.
Also, while I believe that money leads to happier people, I'd imagine people with who spend more money on a car are likely to be more demanding/particular about they want out of that car (e.g. I was very forgiving with issues with my used mini cooper but I get pretty annoyed at most issues with my Model S).
From my own anecdata, the people buying Teslas are all well to do young professionals that I’d expect to be generally happy because they’re missing one of the biggest causes of life stress (financial).
Perhaps a side-effect of the same delusion that can fuel the sunk cost fallacy. Once you have paid $10,000 for full self-driving, you have to tell yourself it was worth it and it is going to be great, and some kind of halo effect bleeds into enjoyment of the car?
This is at least part of how it works when people make religious donations for promise of material reward in situations like prosperity preaching, or when they are led to believe their donation will cure a grave illness in the family.
The connections to prosperity preaching go even further as FSD was sold as the feature that would make Teslas the first ever appreciating mass-market car, bringing in great fortunes for the owners who had enough faith (claims with a strong indication of a 10-20X return on the FSD investment by the time the robotaxi network was to go online in 2020). I may be wrong on this, but I think the income from it is also tax-shielded like a church, as long as they never deliver it never gets recognized and then never gets taxed.
The head Pastor/Technoking can then put the $10,000 payments into Dogecoin investments if he wants, though Tesla would have to pay taxes on any realized gains there.
People are down voting you for some reason, but you're not wrong, but I also think the part about driving a sunk cost fallacy is not specific to Teslas.
I know probably at least seven people who bought expensive two-seat performance cars that run on premium fuel and use very expensive tires that wear out quickly, in addition to other costly maintenance items, and they absolutely are the definition of a sunk cost fallacy.
The majority of the people I know with such cars that have found them to be expensive and impractical are unwilling or unable to sell them because they don't want to admit to themselves that buying the thing in the first place might have been a mistake. They all ended up buying another much more practical car (corolla, civic, etc) and using that for most daily purposes.
My opinion is that this phenomenon can be seen with almost any very expensive status symbol car. Not just Teslas.
Probably a $120k model S is a better example than a $35-45k model 3, but even so...
> Choice-supportive bias or post-purchase rationalization is the tendency to retroactively ascribe positive attributes to an option one has selected and/or to demote the forgone options.[1] It is part of cognitive science, and is a distinct cognitive bias that occurs once a decision is made. For example, if a person chooses option A instead of option B, they are likely to ignore or downplay the faults of option A while amplifying or ascribing new negative faults to option B.
As you said, it is not limited to Teslas, of course.
The Model 3 is priced comparable to a BMW 3 series. The only maintenance you have on them is tires, air filter, wipers, windshield washer fluid, and eventually brake pads. There’s no engine maintenance, no oil changes, no premium gas, no transmission issues, no timing belt, starter, ignition, etc.
If you look at an actual cost of ownership comparison, the Model 3 actually compares favorably to even a Toyota Camry over 5 yrs of ownership. Even in expensive electricity places like CA it’s still way cheaper than gas. The up front cost is a bit higher, but long term it’s cheaper.
I got an old Z31 for fun and ironically it has the same mileage as my daily driver Grand Cherokee (~14mpg). And I feel like all in all it's a cheaper and easier car to work on, smaller tires less electronics etc.
I believe most modern sports cars get even better gas mileage than this so maybe my tolerance for gas cost is just outdated.
What kind of sports cars did the people you know get? A Mustang shouldn't be that bad but some of the other brands can be ridiculous.
350z, 370z, RX8, people who put too much money into modifying a Miata, stuff like that. The RX8 owners were particularly unhappy after the engines all failed.
If you really want to see some poor choices in automotive purchasing, talk to military officers who've seen their direct report E2/E3 go out and buy top specification Dodge Chargers at 25% interest on 72-84 month terms. It's a whole trope.
Tesla certainly has its issues to resolve, but among the biggest problem for me with buying a Tesla is that it represents the gradual but seemingly unstoppable transition of car ownership becoming very much less “ownership,” the way that had happened with software and computers in general. The actual QC issues do seem somewhat serious, but having been inside of a Model X I can 100% understand why someone would be more than happy to deal with an abnormal amount of service issues in exchange for the experience; to this day I would not be surprised if there are no strong direct competitors. Last I looked, most electric cars focused on budget, and I’ve heard newer more luxury focused options still come up a bit short.
I’m not a car person. I have only been in a few “luxury” cars. The Tesla was definitely the defining, “OK, I understand why people enjoy this” moment for me. The amount of torque is terrifying, and it doesn’t really feel like it attempts to emulate the limitations of a gas car in any way. It feels very futuristic.
Compared to my Civic, it’s obviously a hell of a time. But there are some points worth noting. The Sensing feature on the Civic sounds like a nice additional safety feature, but it is pretty abysmal. Of course you wouldn’t expect it to be anything like Waymo Driver or Tesla Autopilot, but even as a safety feature its value is tenuous, very occasionally doing things that could be dangerous (like automatically firing the brakes during a sharp turn...) And the Civic is a well-respected line in terms of being cheap and fairly reliable from what I understand, but there were a litany of hardware and software QC issues in at least the 2016-2018 range. Again, you can’t really compare these two vehicles. But the Civic is a vehicle you buy because it’s a safe choice, yet you could easily end up spending thousands to fix climate control components that should’ve been recalled out-of-warranty, or have issues with software-controlled brakes failing (not in a safety-critical way to the best of my knowledge, but there are some bugs, which makes you feel a bit uneasy...)
I feel like Tesla owners know what they’re getting into: it’s buggy, it might even be insecure, and there are even ethics issues at hand, but it’s luxurious and it feels like the future. Not too many people sell the future in entrenched industries. A Tesla is rare, and I think that is probably why it generates so much hype...
I could probably afford to buy a Tesla. However, I’ll pass. I would like an electric vehicle, but I am just going to hope that there’s an option more down my alley in the future. Maybe there will be an option where you actually own the car you buy, even! Let’s all keep donating to Louis Rossman, on that note...
I understand the derision here when it comes to Tesla because of a figure like Elon Musk. I can attest to it. I used to fanboy Musk but now I believe Tesla succeeds in spite of Musk. There have been too many promises from him not meeting expectations. He also seems pretty ruthless in his leadership of the organization. Just look at the history of exodus. In spite of this, I can genuinely say that out of all the cars I have driven, there is a certain joy in the driving experience of an electric car and Tesla cars without any hype are the ones offering performance, range, and updated software. It’s too bad that the other car companies are just now getting to par with Tesla’s specs. The Model 3 is also relatively priced by the way.
My guess: Tesla can sell cars that might not be top quality because a) first time EV owners are a huge chunk of owners and they get the first time EV experience. Second, in the US Tesla buyers are also still predominantly new car buyers and their sales experience is contrasted to the traditional US dealership sales experience which sounds awful (much of the rest of the world has had showroom + configurators for decades).
A fair comparison would be comparing Tesla owners who have driven other EVs and excluding the US. Everything else is just including ICE to EV or comparing Tesla sales process to US traditional car sales.
In the US. 100% of consumer reports I have seen in Europe doesn't have Tesla in top 3. It's mostly BMW and Toyota at #1.
Edit:
Here's a Danish one (linked directly to a picture since most won't understand the article). The article mentions that Tesla is the worst rated car when asking people about the dealer and repair.
No, they aren’t still noisy, and in fact they never have been. Their noise levels are quite similar to other cars. People PERCEIVE them as being loud because there’s no engine noise blended in with the tire and wind noise, and because they are practically silent at low speed.
If you really want a quieter car, the Model S is rated as one of the quietest cars on the road.
I concur. After a lifetime of Audi, Honda, and VW cars I can honestly say that my Model Y has made driving fun again. I actually look for reasons to drive now. If friends and I are going out, I'll offer to drive everyone. Need something at the store? I'll get it! It's actually kind of ridiculous that pleasure I get from driving now.
They are if they don't live in an apartment, etc... It is too early for widespread adoption... cost being the first reason and charging issues probably being the second. I guess they could do that NIO is doing and allow 5-minute battery swap.
being sold out doesn't mean much when they produce such a low number when compared to other companies? ... Also, I'm not betting against electric vehicles but so many other companies are coming in the market very quickly.
They increase production rate ~100% YOY, and delivered ~500k vehicles last year. Berlin GF4 and Austin GF5 go live by the end of the year, Fremont is expanding.
Tesla is not without substantial fault, just not something I'd bet against. The markets will stay hopeful longer than one can remain solvent and snarky. The market is proven (see: this thread's title). People on HN complain (quality, autopilot, musk, cost, etc) while people with their wallets open (see sold out comment above) purchase Teslas even with the (well documented) issues the vehicles have.
For your comment below "folks are buying enough Teslas to support the production capacity of Tesla" ... that only means that Tesla is not producing more then what they can sell?
(Note: I posted my reply above because HN/dang won't let me post a reply below)
They don’t produce “such a low number”. Tesla produced half a million cars last year, which is pretty close to what Subaru sold in the USA. They are actually getting within a factor of two of the production of mainstream manufacturers.
Oftentimes, people will say correlation does not imply causation, and this is mathematically true (imply means something different in regular parlance, and correlation can very well imply causation in that usage).
That being said, this is probably a case of putting the cart before the horse.
Every software update breaks something. The rear view camera sometimes just blacks out, requiring a soft reboot of the car. Side cameras will just stop working in the middle of a drive. The radio sometimes doesn't work. Requires soft reboot. Speaker volume levels randomly maxing out. Phantom breaking on empty highway on a perfectly clear day. Trunk randomly opening in the middle of the night (seriously, multiple times). It's in a garage but wtf Charger door cycling non-stop with nothing connected. Fix? Soft reboot.
Every time I've had to contact Tesla for anything (buying the car/service issues/wall charger issues) the people have been friendly but unbelievably disorganized.
It's a fun car to drive but there are some serious issues.