On top of that, I too have noticed that parents often talk down to people that haven't experienced parenthood.

Almost as if becoming a parent is very difficult and gives you enlightenment that can be found in no other way.

Honestly in this case; it's somewhat true. Picture a world where you have ~no control of your daily life. You wake up when you hear the screaming in the monitor. You completely structure every non-work hour around 3 hour blocks of potted plants eat/sleep/shit/nap cycles with periods of incredible stress (and uh.. joy) sprinkled liberally through (Holy crap, was that red in the horrible poop running down my leg? Oh we gave him radish, whew.)

I'm being a little facetious here, but i'm just saying that everyones life situation is different. As a relatively new parent, In that situation, I can see it being incredibly hard to simply 'relax' at home. More than anything you'll finally have time to notice the liquified pees that has hardened on the ceiling than actually relax. When i was in my 20s every vacation was 2 weeks of Hostels and hikes, but we are all in different life situations and that doens't make one persons opinion of a 'vacation' more correct than anothers.

PTSD, depression, poverty, lousy roomates, crappy job, etc., all can generate experiences that are not so dissimilar to what you describe. Including, some of these conditions can cause suicide, which might imply they're much worse than parenting, which, ultimately, is perceived as a positive.

Why is parenting, something that gets lots of external support and understanding, the special one here, and not any of these other things? Depressed people don't get a "my life is so hard" horse to sit on continually, often quite the opposite, they have to work hard to hide it.

There's no evidence that parents are special people, none whatsoever, they are best described as people in a tough situation, but there are quite a few different ways to be in a tough situation, and tough situations do not always make people better.

Fair point. Like all situations it’s just another kind of a challenging situation. I’m a first time dad to 3 week old. Our day needs to be structured as little 3 hour days. Sleep deprivation is very real. We get by, by appreciating “other people must have had it worse and their kids did just fine. look at the single moms, or people in poverty, or parents of colic kids. We will do just fine! Nothing special”

> PTSD, depression, poverty, lousy roomates, crappy job, etc., all can generate experiences that are not so dissimilar to what you describe.

Imagine this, and on the top of it being a parent of 3 young children. Unless parents are immune to these conditions.

Any of these problems can be permuted.

But only one of these problems (parenthood) has a special social status.

I would imagine that it is still easier to relax at home than in a foreign place with little kids. If your kids are older and they can more or less roam on their own, yes, it's easier to go on vacation but with little ones now you have to worry that they don't run off, don't get to close to the water, don't run into the bushes after a lizard, or try to swim into deeper waters etc. At home you can at least relax about the environment since you know its safer for them and they are more familiar with it.

Very true, good description of why eating out with children can be hard. Doesn't factor in that you can leave the kids with the (out of town so you don't get baby sitting often) grandparents for a week while you relax on a beach/resort somewhere :)

Free babysitting is a luxury that not everyone has access to :)

> Almost as if becoming a parent is very difficult and gives you enlightenment that can be found in no other way.

You got it!

Now, the "talking down to" is annoying. But if it's about non-parents telling parents about how easy life should be, and parents replying along the lines of "fool, no." it's absolutely warranted.

But taking care of children IS very difficult. And, yes, being a parent is the only way to be enlightened in that way. Nothing else will give you the same experience.

Absolutely agree.

Now I don’t talk down to non-parents, because they made that choice or had the choice made for them (temporarily or permanently).

It’s crazy stressful but at the same time so joyous.

Becoming a parent is easy, it's the other part of looking after the kids that is more troublesome and difficult but, agreed, some parents do seem to talk down people who haven't experienced or chose not to experience it. At the end of the day, having kids is a choice (hopefully), and one shouldn't pull the parent card to convey a point... and do kids offer you enlightenment? Sure but so does a good book.

And vice versa, apparently.

Yep, and it goes on to great extents. I don’t have kids but all coworkers of mine get a “one up” for doing the same things I’m doing while being parents.

7 billion people have been born in last 100 years. Raising kids isn’t abnormal.

No, but it’s hard on a level you can’t understand until you do it.

This is an example of dismissing someone else's perspective.

Have you considered that someone might choose not to have children because they understand how difficult it is?

You could say they correctly assume it’s hard, but to really understand it, they’d need to experience it, no?

No. There are many ways to understand.

They could witness a close friend or sibling struggling to raise children.

They could simply reason about the commitment of time and money required and take note of all the other things in life that parenthood would require them to give up.

You can hear about the experience of a POW, but it won't ever be the same as being a POW. Not trying to equate the two, just showing how telling/imagining aren't quite the same as experiencing.

Sure, but that's true for everything, there's nothing unique about parenting here. I.e., you similarly don't have quite the same experience as a no-kids person who has depression.

Yet this argument seems to come exclusively from parents, assigning parenthood a special status, which makes no sense, since parenting is extremely commom.

This is the same argument as “men will never understand women because to truly understand a woman, you have to be a woman” Well, empathy is quite a real thing. Also everyone’s experience is different, so even if you are a woman, you “truly don’t know what it means to be a woman”.

Once you're arguing the philosophy of knowing something as learned knowledge versus personal experience, the discussion has kind of gone off the rails.

Given that people can relate to plenty of other experiences, I'm not sure why they wouldn't be able to relate to such a common one.

"Dismissing the perspective of any and all non-<insert group>" is a generalisation and not unique to parents. Though as a parent I have noticed it too.

Just don't give me advice about kids (if you don't have kids) and we'll get along just fine ;)

Please do give me advice about other things that you know about and have experience with when I need it.

A lot of people suck at parenting which is obvious for everyone but them. Listening to some advice would help them but usually it's the attitude you present that prevents it.

Here is one example: if your kid tries to sabotage you into buying drugs (sweets) in the middle of the supermarket by throwing a tantrum you don't cave. It's simple and obvious yet so many "just don't give me advice" parents are unable to process and apply it rationalizing why they are in very special situation and no one else could possibly understand. They go and buy more drugs to their already overweight sugar addicted children just to get some temporary relief contributing to child's demise in the process.

My only advice is to try not to be self-righteous, but this has nothing to do with parenthood.

The difference is that everyone who has kids has known what life is like with and without kids. The opposite is not true.

This is true for lots of things, though, many much more exclusive than parenthood, why is having kids singled out?

And you shouldn’t speak as if you have first hand experience on those things either.

Would you take the advice of a childless pediatrician?

Absolutely. Parenthood and child medicine are very different things.

I could advise someone not to jump off a bridge even if I didn't build it.

that would depend a lot on whether they never had children or had children that died at a young age

Medicine doesn't quite work that way in the modern world.

All parents have been non-parents. None of the non-parents have been parents. So let me tell you one thing: you have no idea.