~15 years fullstack and DevOps experience, visited top local university, no degree. Mostly Python + some other languages. Have been interviewing for Lead SE/DevOps/SRE roles as well as some architecture positions.

My findings about the German job market for developers:

- Remote-work is here to stay. Almost all companies are okay with full-remote, those who are not, want ~2 days in the office per week.

- Companies are starting to do leetcode-style interviews. Sometimes some FizzBuzz level to check basic understanding, going up to harder problems unrelated to the position. Unless they are very hard, you will just get used to that.

- Remote or hybrid meetings with multiple participants are horrible for interviewing. The delay makes you come across slow and is very distracting, when you need to look sharp.

- If you want to earn money in Germany, you have to join a bigger company.

- Bigger companies do their development in Java with a minority being MS shops. Python is for data science and DevOps.

- The missing degree is mostly not a problem. Sometimes the CTO's PHD makes it one.

- Landing lead/lower management roles seems to be difficult if you have limited experience leading people. Those seem to be mostly staffed internally.

- The market value for a profile like mine in a big German city seems to be around 100k € including some small bonus.

- There are many offers under that number. I think I would get hired almost instantly if I would accept offers for 80k €.

- All-in all IT does not seem affected by the downturn yet.

While these numbers are not directly comparable to the US (lower cost of living, better social security, health-insurance included and not tied to your job etc.) my subjective feeling is, that I am getting taken advantage of here. Salaries seem to be too low. You are often getting low-balled because "it would not fit within the salaries of the other team members".

For the time being, freelancing is the way to go in Germany, even though you are fighting against regulations.

Preach it! CoL in German cities is far too high for how low skilled dev wages are. 100k at 15 years work experience is an insult when you look at Munich/Berlin house prices and that new grads can get 60k.

And DW posted a YouTube video yesterday about how Germany has a shortage of software developers and they need to actively recruit from India and Pakistan. [1]

More like a shortage of desperate people willing to be low balled and a shortage of companies paying good wages.

Companies in Germany need to start paying ICs more and stop complaining about shortage of workers. Simple.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8Mch8xDCZU

Outside of FANGS & MANGAS, German companies would start laughing if you ask for that much for IC positions, even senior ones.

That kind of cheese is usually reserved for management/corporate bootlickers high up the command chain.

So with a 100k€ annual salary, one working parent alone can buy the house and feed the entire family. You consider that an "insult"?

Secondly, I'm genuinely interested in your thoughts here. What if you:

* Lived in the EU

* Being salaried 100k EUR (which is probably around 90th percentile)

* Worked for a _global_ company with a _global_ product deployed on a _global_ market with _global_ competition

And now some of your colleagues are from the US and you:

* have the same responsibilities as they do

* have the same skill-set needed for given position as they do

* have the same impact, or potential for it thereof, as they do

* have to go through the same agony of being and staying among top performers

And yet your US colleagues are salaried 2x-3x as much as you are. Without taking RSUs into a picture because that's a very rare thing to have in European companies.

What are your thoughts about this? Do you attribute this difference solely to the cost of living?

Also, with 2 kids and 2 adults out of which only 1 is working, you'll get heavy tax deductions, so I'd expect an effective tax rate of around 15%. That 100k€ gross will turn into 85k€ after taxes. Deduct another 10k€ annually for top-tier health insurance for everyone, 1900€ per month = 23k€ annually for the house and that leaves you with about 4300€ each month to spend on food, clothing and heating.

This might be just me, but I think if you pay people so that they can have a very nice lifestyle where they live, that's a "good salary". If the absolute $ number is higher in San Francisco than it is in Germany, then you either need to pay them more to match the lifestyle, or maybe hire in cheaper markets.

Germany in general seems to be very remote friendly. Many larger companies even have programs where you can go on a work-vacation to a tourist resort and they'll organize a co-working space and necessary permits. I guess that's why you see salaries equalize more throughout Germany while in the US the regional differences are quite strong.

Your calculus is far far from reality so your further reasoning is therefore flawed from the very start. 4-4.5k EUR is probably more realistic.

Moreover, property prices around EU are generally speaking anywhere from 3k EUR to 15k EUR per sqm. For a 100sqm home that's 300k EUR for the cheapest one, 700-800k EUR as a median and more expensive ones over a 1M EUR. Even with the 90-th percentile salary such as 4k EUR per month (after tax), how exactly do you envision buying a home with that sort of prices?

Software engineers are being grossly underpaid in Europe and all this recurring bullshit around housing prices, living costs etc. is just a bullshit that capitalist companies will spread to convince people such as yourself to start considering your colleagues as a "threat" and not just human beings who want to be paid what they are deserved.

My purchasing power, even with the 90-th percentile salary in EU, is _nowhere_ near the purchasing power I'd have with the same skills I have if I had lived in the US and that's where all the discussion can stop. If we take some of the other European countries as an example that gap is going to be even much larger. Purchasing power coefficients are a real thing you know.

There is shitton mandatory insurances and payments. Income tax alone does not really matter. Rundfunkgebühr is very real tax and can’t be avoided.

Edit: sorry, I am rude. But downplaying all the so called insurances, that must be paid from salary is not nice. They must be paid in full and can’t be avoided. I would love to decide about my retirement by myself instead of funding current retirees.

So you hire someone who has 14 years of extra experience and brings a lot more value to the company and only pay them 40k extra?

That's why I'm saying it feels like an insult.

It's why we should compare salaries for positions rather than YoE.

Not in this case. It is 15 years of proper software engineering and devops experience, for times in leading positions with additional responsibilities.

The cost published does not include heating or any other utilities, that adds up pretty quick!

And yes, heating and utilities add up. But we're talking about a salary that after taxes will be 3x to 4x the down payments.

And even if it was, the legal costs alone add up to a few tens of thousands of EUR for a property like this (eg. if the property is worth €500k, you are looking at at least in the order of €50k of legal costs and taxes...). But I don't know of any bank that would lend you 100% of the price of the property you want to buy, if you do please introduce me to them...

If it really was so easy, everyone would be buying these properties. But the upfront costs are simply prohibitive.

"But I don't know of any bank that would lend you 100% of the price of the property you want to buy, if you do please introduce me to them..."

Here's a FAQ on buying a house without any prior capital. Obviously, the interest rate is going to be higher... https://www.immobilienscout24.de/wissen/kaufen/finanzierung-...

Because at most places lead/lower management is another word for yes men that have proven their blind loyalty to the CTO, usually for 2 or 3 years. They don't wanna hire a manager who may question the status quo, especially when it comes to architecture and best practices.

> The market value for a profile like mine in a big German city seems to be around 100k € including some small bonus.

That sounds low to me and attainable in Europe if you have 5+ YoE at the right places. It sounds to me like you are being lowballed. I'm getting similar offers with way less experience.

Where you at?

In the Netherlands getting anything over €70k is incredibly hard. There are very few companies offering close to that and those are often for architecture roles. Lead dev is usually €60-70k, with some €70-80k exceptions, but those usually require ~10 years focused experience.

Interestingly, over here the freelance market is much better. Those will easily get you €100-150k gross and are often quite long term. And even with €100k, combined with all the tax benefits it's very much worth it.

I have talked to some companies in Ireland and the UK in the last few months, and their ranges usually start at 80/90k. The most famous example is probably Google. Entry level (L3) is 100k-ish and L4 starts at ~120k. Even if OP was placed at a below average level for someone with 15 YoE, they should be getting 150k+ offers.

Well, it's definitely possible in Poland.

I’m paying around 120-130k in Amsterdam which has a similar CoL to Berlin.

But it was a huge paycut. I’m definitely happier than I was in the US but I have been considering moving a bit further south. Bumping up to 120k and getting more sunshine would be very nice.

I am applying currently, don't know how that will turn out, but he manager even said that Swedish developers are cheaper for the company than people from Germany, Switzerland and I think even Poland was getting bigger wages.

So Sweden has this low-wage aura apparently.

That’s how I justify it here at least. I mean, I make 500.000kr less than I did in the US, but 900k also puts me in the top 5% of all earners in Norway. So I have a very good quality of life.

The middle class is so compressed here that it’s a super cozy income, and I will never have to worry about anything financially or healthcare related for the rest of my life.

I just have moments of «I want more», which is when I get anxiety and look elsewhere. But honestly not sure I need it in any real way.

Premium areas are London and Paris. But even these salaries are closer to a middle rate USA city.

Super-premium (on par with more expensive USA salaries like SF or NYC) is Switzerland. Very expensive to hire there and easily the highest salaries in Europe in my experience.

This is just based on a CoL ratings at a single place.

When looking at offers there, there is absolutly nothing beyond 70k.

Companies tend to have a ladder and different paths/comp levels for managers and individual contributors. Different regions are then sliced into different levels and what you're left with is location, a role, and a level. These are combined to create a salary band which is the range an employee that fits into the profile.

It's important to note, it's a salary band. This means an individual can have a fairly wide range of total compensation across this band. Also, some companies are biased towards salary or stock options/RSUs. But generally, an employee will have a lower "comp-ratio" meaning they are under the middle of the band. This leaves room for raises, etc. At some point an employee will be at the top of their band. They are either promoted into a higher level, kept at their current level but only given CoL increases (bands tend to increase ~3% each year), or fired.

The company can decide how competitive they want to be in each region or choose to not hire in a region because it is too expensive to be competitive there.

Typical freebies in Germany include:

- 13th salary as a Christmas gift (so +8.3% salary)

- only half of your health insurance costs are included in the nominal salary

- tax refunds if you buy a PC, do courses, or drive to work with your car

- company pays for children's daycare

- government-backed retirement fund with generous payouts. If you pay in 83€ per month now you can expect to receive at least €450 per month later.

Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living.

Health insurance is expensive and low quality. One must pay for all modern treatments despite being insured. Or have another expensive additional insurance. Cancer will be treated for free, that’s right.

Tax refund is a bad joke. Spending 5000€ to get cents back. 50% taxes and mandatory insurance plus 19% value added tax (food less, fuel with additional taxes). So 2/3 earned go to the government. Nice!

No company from dozen paid for childcare. I know, that it might happen, but it’s rare. Some companies have on-site kindergartens. But well… the waitlist is long unless you are important manager.

Government retirement will be about enough to live in extreme poverty trying to save every cent.

Just got intrigued and opened immobilienscout24. No houses for 2000€ in Hamburg and Berlin for a family of 5. Rather old Reihenmittelhaus for 2500€ with current electricity and heating prices.

There is nothing comfortable about 100k€ annually. Especially for a family of five. It’s like 4500€ after taxes every month paying 2500€ rent and living from 2000€. Belarus freelancers also make this and have really comfy lifestyles.

Edit: with 3 kids it’s closer to 5000€ after taxes. Still does not provide any luxury.

About the retirement... I would be careful about big expectations. Everything is based in constant growth of the german economy. Any public retirement is basically a Ponzi scheme (not my words! but from a Nobel Economy laureate)

Also one very important thing about cost of living: Hamburg and Munich, for example, the cost of living means that doing 20k more per year, as compared with say, Stuttgart, at the end you get the same... or the way around, 100k in Stuttgart is like 120k in Munich. You really have to factor that into the equation.

Everything else is worse than what I earn as a fully remote employee, who could choose to live in any number of second or third tier American cities that are nearly as cheap as Berlin.

You can get your own coverage on the Affordable Care Act exchanges. It's not necessarily a great deal, but again, it's about keeping that out of pocket limit as a safety net.

In all likelihood the burned out hypothetical software engineer is going to recover and find work with employer funded healthcare coverage again.

My 100k number is all-in.

> Also, with a bit of searching, you can rent a house with garden for €2000 per month even in large cities like Hamburg or Berlin. As a result, an 100k€ annual salary will be enough for you alone to comfortably bankroll a family of 5 - something that's almost impossible in the bay area due to high rents and insane costs of living.

That is true. But you have to say goodbye to any romantic dreams about owning any property big enough for children (within a nice area of such a city), if you and a similiarly well-doing partner do not want to work for it for the rest of your life. If you have not come across FIRE, that might be okay as well.

But then again, would that work out if you were to work in San Francisco for $200k annually?

I’ll be moving to Berlin in January, aber ich spreche nur Englisch und ich lerne Deutsch. Ich habe die EU-Staatsbürgerschaft und meine Frau kommt aus Berlin.

I am a senior front end dev who has experience leading teams

Some advice (some of it obvious if you've dont it before and not specific for Germany but maybe it's useful):

Have a profile on Linkedin and Xing, upload to sites like freelance.de and maybe to a bunch of agencies. Be ready to send a profile, listing as many projects as possible, i.e. different roles in a company could be separate projects. Make sure all relevant search terms (languages, frameworks, tools) appear for each project even if repetitive. English-only is ok in many places, German-speaking projects can be a little better though.

It's all through intermediaries, which means you can (and should) negotiate rates hard without worrying about burning bridges. No call with a recruiter that didn't go pleasantly ever led to anything so if it feels weird just hang up. Expect to be placed 3-6 months min, 2 years max in a project. Research a little on "Scheinselbständigkeit" but it's not a huge issue these days. If you want 100% remote it should be possible.

Good luck and welcome to Germany :-)

1. Just get a tax advisor who is fine speaking English with you. Just let him do everything in the beginning. Afterwards you can do more of that yourself. Try to be classified as Freiberuflich, not Gewerbetreibender. It helps if you have an engineering degree, but he can help you with that.

2. Do at least two gigs per year (Scheinselbstständigkeit).

3. Use HAYS and others to start it of.

4. Continue to learn German. Maybe do some German interview training or something to get in. There are teams working in English, but you will have an easier time overall.

You are required to have Health Insurance if you live in Germany, and for freelancers it is quite expensive(it will probably cost more per month than apartment rent). This can be a dealbreaker for people with limited financial resources who need some time to get their business off the ground.

However, if you don't want to be tied down, something like "Elternzeitvertretung" (aka jumping in for people on paternity/maternity leave) might be interesting for you.

Yeah, seems so - 80k is on the higher end, but possible in Poland, while the CoL is laughably low compared to Germany.

The gov. has good health service, and also education. But the education system has some interesting limitations, that may surprise you.

Net would be something like 55k if you are single, but you already paid into a mandatory retirement plan and you, your kids (and laughably also your partner) are health insured.