A business man at a prior employer sympathetic with my younger, naive "Microsoft sucks" attitude told me something I remember to this day:
Microsoft is not a software company, they have never been experts at software. They are experts at contracts. They lead because their business machine exceeds at understanding how to tick the boxes necessary to win contract bids. The people who make purchasing decisions at companies aren't technical and possibly don't even know a world outside Microsoft, Office, and Windows, after all.
This is how the sausage is made in the business world, and it changed how I perceived the tech industry. Good software (sadly) doesn't matter. Sales does.
This is why most of Norway currently runs on Azure, even though it is garbage, and even though every engineer I know who uses it says it is garbage. Because the people in the know don't get to make the decision.
I’d say, they are very good at making platforms and grab everyone lock-in. But they need a good platform first. Azure seems like the first platform that is kinda shitty from the beginning and did not improve much.
MBASIC was good and filled a void so it got used widely from the beginning. The language is their first platform. Later the developer tools like the IDE, compilers, still pretty solid if you ask me.
MS-DOS and Windows are their next platform. It started OK with DOS — because CP/M was not great either. But the stability of Windows sucked so they brought in David Cutler’s team to make NT. It definitely grabbed the home/office market but didn’t do well for the server market.
X-BOX is their third platform, which started very well but we all know the story now.
Azure is their fourth platform, started shitty and still not good. The other platforms have high vintage points but Azure may not have one.
Those are mostly end-user or hosting platforms you mention (and their problems), what really makes MS tick is the enterprise platforms.
Windows networks, Active Directory,etc. Azure is the continuation of that, those who run AD oftne default to Azure (that offers among other things hosted or hybrid AD environments).
That's true for Azure, where contracts are signed due to free credits given over Office and Windows usage.
However, there is a reason why everyone uses Office and Windows.
Office is the only suite that has the complete feature set (Ask any accountant to move to Google Sheets). Windows is the only system that can effectively run on any hardware (PnP) and have been that way for decades.
This is due to superior software on the aspects that matter to customers
People use Windows because Office runs on Windows, and Windows ran in any shitty cheap beige box. This is the whole story since the 1990's.
On hardware: it's because Windows has a stable kernel ABI and makes it very simple for hardware vendors to write proprietary drivers. Linux kind of forces everybody to upstream their device drivers, which is good and bad at the same time - DKMS is something relatively new.
But yeah, the NT kernel is very nice, the problem with Windows is the userland.
Windows is the only system that can effectively run on any hardware
...as long as that hardware is Intel-based (and a select few ARM-based boards nowaways). And the reason that it runs on all that hardware is because of Microsoft's business contracts with hardware vendors, not because of their software quality -- that's immaterial, as Microsoft generally does not write the drivers.
Compare the experience in Linux or Mac for getting some random no-name device working with Windows.
A lot of it is the fact that the OS has created a very complex yet consistent system of device compatibility that was completely absent from all competitors who are still behind on that aspect or alternatively the choice of kernel design architecture
It's been like two decades since I used windows on a computer I own, but I always had a way harder time getting hardware to work with windows than I have with linux. I still shudder when I remember trying to track down drivers from different vendors, while avoiding the malware they shipped with it versus letting it just work.
edit:
I just remembered when I first used CUPS to configure a printer in 2003. It blew my mind with how easy it was, and I think that was the moment when I decided to start using linux as my primary desktop. Pre-Novell Suse at the time if im remembering correctly.
A overly reductionist argument. They described any commercial software company because in the end, you sell or you die. Microsoft has incredible software people and incredible software that coexists with the shitty software people and shitty software.
I think this is spot on. Everything at the R&D phase of a project indicates that an Azure service is going to work for the use case. I've been reading the docs and though 'wow this is perfect!'. Then you get to implementation and realize its a buggy mess that barely does what you wanted to do in the first place, with ton of caveats.
Of course that realization comes when you are already at the point of no return, probably by design.
This is in many ways a smart way to understand the problem, but it doesn't mean that microsoft contracts mean you're stuck with bad software. There are several verticals where Microsoft and Azure actually were smart and chose a better software product to sell on their platform than what they had in house.
One example is when they stopped trying to develop a inferior product to EMR and Dataproc, and essentially just outsourced the whole effort to a deal made between them and Databricks. Because of this I assume many enterprise azure customers have better running data solutions in that space than they wouldve had they gone with just AWS or GCP.
On the other hand, having worked for Microsoft on an Azure team, there are plenty of areas that critically need a rewrite (for dozens of different reasons), and such a solution is never found (or they just release some different product and tell those with different needs to migrate to that), where they keep on building what can only really be described as hot-fixes to meet urgent customer demands that make it harder to eventually do said critical rewrite.
About a year ago the whole situation changed and Microsoft started to push everyone to their own Data Engineering solution (Fabric) that back then was really half-baked.
The biggest expense in software is maintenance. Better software means cheaper maintenance. If you actually want to have a significant cost advantage, software is the way to go. Sadly most business is about sales and marketing and has little to do with the cost or quality of items being sold.
It will depend on each case and what makes the marketed solution inferior. If it's overly complex and you will save development time. If it's unstable you'll save debugging time. If it's bloated you will save on hardware costs. Etc...
Most customers don't really have the knowledge needed to make choices based on technical merits, and that's why the market works as it does. I'm willing to say 95% of people on HN have this knowledge and are therefore biased to assume others are the same way. It's classic XKCD 2501.
Finnish public sector is also heavy Azure user. Their common ethos is that modern cloud services(=azure) are in many respects more secure than on-premises data centers. In addition, they are cost-effective and reliable.
My lesson was when European companies followed US tech into offshoring, and how quality doesn't play any role as long as the software delivers, from business point of view.
Especially relevant when shipping software isn't the product the company sells.
It's the same in Norway, and news paper chronicles are going as far as saying things like "Now that we learned that we went to far, what do we do with the generation of kids we experimented on?". Food for thought.
Considering how many old people hold on to beliefs like women belonging at home doing the household and/or that people of color are violent, I'm not sure such a conversation is going to lead anywhere. We let them vote until they die, or authorize someone else to get a second vote (like my 90yo grandma does for my 65yo conservative/racist dad), as though they still have an understanding of society. A good understanding of climate change is barely 40 years old, if the news didn't tell them then they just go no education on the world's biggest ongoing challenge. People have just been letting the old generation be because we can't figure out anything better (I'm also not sure what a good system would look like)
To be fair, in Tokyo I see a lot of ISPs pushing 5g routers. Many buildings have fiberoptics pulled to the basement and then use VDSL for the last meters, and I bet they'd rather move everyone over to 5G than have to start actually installing proper fiberoptic internet. In Norway, 5g has been advertised as something groundbreaking and radical. We have been told "now surgery is finally possible with mobile networks" (hospitals don't have fiberoptics??) and similar. Very Apple 2010s "The ipad can now be used by (good person) to do (good thing)"-like. But nobody cares, real users don't see any benefit.
A normal person will probably never notice the difference between 4g and 5g because of what they use their phone for, and giving every household a proper fiberoptic line is probably a much better quality of life improvement. But ISPs dont want that future. They want everyone to be connected to these neighborhood hubs that don't require last-100m-cables and expensive construction. The same can probably be said for Starlink. It's "Good enough", and that's good enough to get sales. They don't care about the quality of the product they deliver, or if fiberoptics are superior. They care about sales.
I can't help but sense a level of arrogance when they launch their product by writing an obituary for a competitor. Is this what people feel when they make fun of the "(product here) killer"?
Yeah I totally get the rule. I use LLMs when developing. In fact, I've been out of Claude tokens for the week since Wednesday, but I use Claude specifically for the boring, simple stuff I don't really want to do, but that Claude can. I'm simply not interested in discussing anything LLMs are able to do, it's not interesting.
It makes sense that a programming subreddit first and foremost discusses programming (the skill). We can go complain about Claude somewhere else if we want to.
Following up, anecdotally, people I talk to who are excited about LLM development usually either care more about product development, or don't have programming skill enough to see how bad the software is. Nothing wrong with either, but it can get tiresome.
> people I talk to who are excited about LLM development usually either care more about product development
This is an interesting thing I've also noticed in public hobbyist forums/discussion spaces where someone who is more interested in making a "product" clashes with people who are just there to talk about the activity itself. It's unfortunate that it happens but it will self-correct over time (like /r/programming here) and the LLM enthusiasts of Reddit will find another place to discuss ways of using them.
I've found OTel to still have rough edges and it's not really the one stop shop for telemetry we want it to be at $work yet. In particular, no good (sentry-style) exception capturing yet. They also recently changed a lot of metric names(for good reason it seems), which breaks most dashboards you find on the internet.
I have been warned by people that OTel isn't mature yet and I find it to still be true, but it seems the maintainers are trying to do something about this nowadays
I think that the "issue" around otel is that instrumentation is easy and free (as both in beer and freedom) but then for the dashboarding part is where there are literally tens of different SaaS solutions, all more or less involved with the OTel development itself, that want you to use their solution (and pay $$$ for it). And even if you can go a loooong way with a self-hosted Grafana + Tempo, even Grafana Labs are putting more and more new features behind the Grafana Cloud subscription model.
Yeah. The auto dashboard stuff Grafana cloud is doing nowadays is cool (even if it's just Greg in engineering department writing heuristics), but I can't help but feel pissed that the oss dashboards for otel on Grafanas website aren't even up to date.
I use Grafana because it has value for me both at work and for hobby, but it's becoming more painful to use Grafana for hobby so I agree with your point
I know a lot of shops that prefer the datadog stack, which apparently does have its own sentry-like exception capturing system. To me, exception capturing is an obvious core feature and it is humiliating to discuss OTel with people who agree, and use datadog and are satisfied.
In school I learned the definition of politics was "the distribution of benefits and burdens". We can and probably should view this as a political question. The benefit is the consumer right to do whatever you want with the device you bought (used by some), vs the burden of making yourself attackable by scammers etc. Google are pushing first and foremost for protecting end-users from scammers. They do benefit from this, so there is probably an incentive for them to do so. It is very practical that they can call locking down their phones "protecting users".
The big question here is where on the balance scale we care about "protecting users against scammers" vs "protecting users against enshittification, closed ecosystems, and possible future power grabs". One side is very tangible and easy to understand, the other more abstract, and most consumers simply don't understand it well enough to make educated choices about it. This uncertainty is being used by powers that benefit from pushing towards the "lock-down" extreme of the scale. Peter Thiel said so himself.
It is also worth noting that it is these security guys' job at Google to invent security schemes. All in all they did their job as engineers, and ignoring personal responsibility to engineer solutions that balance needs not only technical but also social, they did everything right. In a larger society there should be people who take on the job of setting boundaries for these technical solutions. Just like you need technical people to push back on technical demands from non-technical people within a company, we people who push back on this sort of stuff in our society. Us technical folks are best suited to do this job.
TL;DR: The political question boils down to how many grandmas are we as a society happy with getting scammed in the name of protecting consumer freedoms? In the extreme and hyperbolic case, are we happy with an infinite number of grandmas being sacrificed? Where on the line do we want to be? And what other measures can we put into place to make the problem easier to solve without sacrificing basic freedoms? If you are technical you should probably consider taking more space in the public debate.
I have to admit i solve some support cases similarly. If I get questions about what seems to be a trivial thing I tend to wait a while with responding because most of the time it solves itself or the user discovered the plug was unplugged.
To be fair this is over text to I can perform some heuristic to select what I want to respond to immediately or not. Phone support doesn't have this luxury. It's the kind of situation where you wish shiboleet was a thing
Microsoft is not a software company, they have never been experts at software. They are experts at contracts. They lead because their business machine exceeds at understanding how to tick the boxes necessary to win contract bids. The people who make purchasing decisions at companies aren't technical and possibly don't even know a world outside Microsoft, Office, and Windows, after all.
This is how the sausage is made in the business world, and it changed how I perceived the tech industry. Good software (sadly) doesn't matter. Sales does.
This is why most of Norway currently runs on Azure, even though it is garbage, and even though every engineer I know who uses it says it is garbage. Because the people in the know don't get to make the decision.
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