Just skimmed the comments (I know, I know, never read the comments) but here are couple of facts in case you care about that sort of thing (but please don’t let these get in the way of a lively discussion) ;)
- re: drug dealers/users, see: analogy
- Yes, six years ago, we thought we could fix the problem with a phone. Then we started working on the problem and realised we couldn’t possibly raise enough money to do so, then we did a crowdfunding campaign that never included the phone (we promised the alpha of an initial peer-to-peer Mac-based social networking client and promised to keep working on the problem, both of which we delivered on). Also, anyone who asked for a refund from the crowdfunding for any reason got one. If I could do it again, we wouldn’t have held the crowdfunding and I wouldn’t have started on Mac. But this was all part of the process of us learning about the problem.
- It wasn’t on Kick Starter, we built our own crowdfunding system because I wasn’t happy with how Kick Starter, etc., were gathering data (we didn’t want your privacy violated for trying to support us)
- Since then, I’ve sold the three family homes we had (apartments in Turkey, total worth about ~€200,000 or so) and we’ve kept working on the same problem for the past six/seven years with the the initial crowdfunding + those funds + sales of our tracker blocker (Better Blocker) on Mac/iOS + professional speaking fees when we speak at conferences, etc. + donations to our not-for-profit (which basically pay our hosting fees every month).
- Unless IndieWeb is suddenly about building single-tenant web nodes as part of a peer-to-peer future / topologically decentralised Web for everyday people, I don’t see how it’s the same as Small Web. If that is what they’re about now, then sure but, last I checked, they thought we were deranged zealots for publicly calling out Google, Facebook, etc., for being surveillance capitalists.
- Re: not having done anything since: we created Better Blocker, I personally spoke at over 50 events to raise awareness of the issue, including three times at the European Parliament, I spearheaded the creation of progressive tech policy at one of Europe’s most progressive political movements, and we worked with the City of Ghent on evolving what is now Site.js and the Small Web initiative.
- Finally, someone mentioned that some “privacy projects” say “Don't trust others, trust us.” If anyone tells you that, don’t trust them. We know how to, can, should be (and are) building technology where you don’t have to trust us.
Also, PS:
Small Web is not about having your own Static Web page or having yet another tool for geeks. It’s not about going back to the 90s (been there, was fun, wouldn’t want to go back), it’s about taking the best of that ethos and implementing it for 2020 and beyond. Right now, I’m trying to build a tool for developers (including us) so that we can use it to build everything things for everyday people that don’t require a Faustian pact to give up your privacy, freedom of speech, or your personhood to use.
Whether or not this “succeeds”, who knows? But we’re sharing everything we make under AGPL and trying to share every brick in this bridge we’re trying to build between where we are (the sewer that is surveillance capitalism) and where we want to be in hopes that if the stuff we build doesn’t work, at least others can use the tools to build other solutions.
Here’s a recent talk if you’d like to learn more about what we’re working on:
You don’t have to like what we do and you definitely don’t have to like me but I do hope that you will consider the ideas (and ideals) we’re working towards.
One of the cute things is, that I like Aral. I do, ever since he got mad at PayPal. I like him because he has been steadfast at this while many of the others that started to bang on this problem when it just appeared (2006/7/8) either joined the armies of Mordor .. (Chris Messina?) Or got tired... Distracted.. or are still fighting the fight from the sidelines (Evan Prodromou, Blaine Cook, such lovely people!). So many have just disappeared.
Yeah, his self-aggrandizing can be tiresome. He does sound like a one person cult from time to time. But he has been tireless in saying the one important thing "This fight can be won. Don't let up. It is worth fighting". And that in itself is worth our respect.
Now, I have long come to the conclusion that there are no technical solutions to this. Only political ones. In the sense that at the micro level we need to create the movement of people that care. At the macro level we need to elect the people that pass the laws that break the megacorps or make them into public utilities. It doesn't mean we stop working on the software infrastructure to combat the Evil empire(s). But software alone won't cut it.
Now Aral is not useless on those tlfights either. He keeps talking about them, and talks well.
So, will Site.js make any dent in anything? Quite obviously not. Personally, technically, most of it makes me cringe quite violently.
Could it have had a better chance if Aral was "nicer", humbler, at a bit better at coalition building? Probably.
At any rate, Aral, not being "nice" is no reason to be nasty yourself.
Best of luck Aral, keep up the fight, and thank you for your service.
Aral: you go rounds and rounds to reinvent ideas that are solved, and it's been like this for years.
You could join any ActivityPub based project; even start one; build a Matrix client with a web frontent; dig into Scuttlebutt; start working with Beaker on dat://. Any of these choices are better, than starting yet another approach from scratch and wasting a lot of time and effort on it.
Now, for the other issue: please don't try to coin new term that is confusing to everyone. For example, there was a brilliant essay recently - https://neustadt.fr/essays/the-small-web/ - which used the same "small web" phrase in a very different context. This is just the tip of the iceberg with the problem of using something this generic.
"solved" is overstating it, but are already being worked on by groups that have made good progress and a working base, and will continue to make progress.
Your coworker gets it :) It’s simply a matter of business models – you don’t even have to like Apple or think they’re lovely people (everyone I’ve met there has been).
Google’s business model is to digitise you and own that digital copy. They use this proxy of you to manipulate and exploit your behaviour for profit and to indirectly rent access to aspects of you to their customers (currently, advertisers).
Apple’s business model, on the other hand, is to make great tools and sell them to you at a price that makes them happy.
(So if you were to buy an Android phone and never use it, Google would be very unhappy. If you buy an Apple phone and never use it, Apple’s still made their profit.)
To cut a long story short, privacy is an absolute competitive advantage for Apple. It is a thing that they can compete on without breaking a sweat (as it doesn’t impact their bottom line negatively) whereas, if Google was to try, they would go bankrupt (as their business model depends on profiling you and violating your privacy).
All you need to understand to grok why Apple is protecting your privacy is that multibillion-dollar corporations don’t get an absolute competitive advantage over their main rivals everyday and – if you do find one – you’d have to be an absolute idiot to squander it. (And I don’t believe the folks at Apple are idiots.)
So yes, Apple’s systems are proprietary and closed, and no, you don’t have to love everything they do, but when it comes to protecting your privacy, all you need to do is trust that under our current system of capitalism, a publicly-traded corporation won’t act against the interests of its bottom line/the interests of their shareholders to squander an absolute competitive advantage against its main rival.
(PS. Longer term, I hope that we will radically alter the topology of technology so that we are not reliant on a handful of kings – benevolent or otherwise – to safeguard our rights. That’s what the Internet of People initiative we just launched with DiEM25 in Europe is all about: https://ar.al/notes/towards-an-internet-of-people-with-diem2...)
Indeed :) And thanks for the heads up, Arthur. Was a bit of debugging code left in by mistake. Fixed it when I was skimming these comments yesterday but haven’t had a chance to reply and say thanks until now :)
The phone is several years away… we’re concentrating on building the platform at the moment — starting with a lovely way to share stuff you care about between your devices and with other people (without any Facebook-like creepy uncle in the middle — thus, peer-to-peer). Once we get the UX right on the core, we’ll go from there. If we fuck up the UX, none of the other stuff matters. That’s really where we differ with Openmoko, etc. :)
Also remember that Swift is already starting to be taught in schools. Imagine if a natural language that is taught in schools was tied to a single company. If, for example, you needed an Apple pen to write English. How much of literature would we have missed out on? Would Shakespeare have been able to afford an Apple pen? Thankfully, we never have to find out ;)
Hey folks, just wanted to say that it’s very early days at the moment (as WoodenChair commented) — and we’re changing the button to "Sneak Peek" to reflect this. Poor Greg has been working his fingers off to get it ready (he’s pulled three all-nighters and that can’t be healthy so he’s been told in no uncertain terms to get some sleep now) and we should have a running compiler within the week.
If any of you want to help out, please do get in touch.
Ideally, of course, if Apple opens Swift up, we can contribute to that instead of duplicating effort :)
Also if you read a bit further, the effort on Phoenix is lead by Greg Casamento, who is also involved with GNUStep (and thus bringing the NS* objects to Linux).
Thanks for the clarification. I've met Aral and consider him a very smart guy, I was just commenting about my gut feeling in situations similar to this. I'm happy to learn I'm wrong in this case. :)
Just skimmed the comments (I know, I know, never read the comments) but here are couple of facts in case you care about that sort of thing (but please don’t let these get in the way of a lively discussion) ;)
Also, PS:Small Web is not about having your own Static Web page or having yet another tool for geeks. It’s not about going back to the 90s (been there, was fun, wouldn’t want to go back), it’s about taking the best of that ethos and implementing it for 2020 and beyond. Right now, I’m trying to build a tool for developers (including us) so that we can use it to build everything things for everyday people that don’t require a Faustian pact to give up your privacy, freedom of speech, or your personhood to use.
Whether or not this “succeeds”, who knows? But we’re sharing everything we make under AGPL and trying to share every brick in this bridge we’re trying to build between where we are (the sewer that is surveillance capitalism) and where we want to be in hopes that if the stuff we build doesn’t work, at least others can use the tools to build other solutions.
Here’s a recent talk if you’d like to learn more about what we’re working on:
https://small-tech.org/videos/eastern-partnership-civil-soci...
You don’t have to like what we do and you definitely don’t have to like me but I do hope that you will consider the ideas (and ideals) we’re working towards.