Mathematics is closer to the least in-demand humanities than CS in terms of investment quality... actually, it's probably one of the worse fields in which to do a phd. History or Philosophy might be better... at least there you're free to live a life of the mind. If you sign up for a Math PhD in the USA, you're almost certainly just signing up to be a university College Algebra/Calc I teacher for like 1/2-1/3rd of what middle school teachers are making.
Seriously. Don't get a PhD in Math. It's a miserable field.
I disagree completely (my PhD is in maths). I don't know about the USA specifically, but this doesn't match my experience or that of anyone I know. Many maths PhDs don't go into academia, and those that do earn decent money (definitely more than our equivalent of middle school teachers). I don't know anyone who would describe the field as miserable, and I'm sorry to hear you have reached that conclusion (and confused, to be honest).
Seriously, if you're really interested in maths, look into a PhD in it. It's an exciting and fulfilling field. There are decent odds you won't end up in academia, so aim for an area with practical applications or that will teach you useful skills.
> Many maths PhDs don't go into academia, and those that do earn decent money (definitely more than our equivalent of middle school teachers).
I meant during the PhD. In the USA, it's very common for math folks to teach for most of their PhD. Teaching every semester + summers is not common at all in the rest of STEM. Between the higher salary and pension (!), middle school teachers are making a lot more than PhD students. It would be a weird apples-to-oranges comparison for most phd programs, but, unlike mot phd programs, math phds spend an enormous amount of their time TAing baby math classes.
> but this doesn't match my experience or that of anyone I know.
It matches the experience of almost everyone I know
> Seriously, if you're really interested in maths, look into a PhD in it.
But also consider PhDs in other fields.
Or just take an under-paying/low-time-commitment in industry and study math on the side; in a math phd program in the usa, your College Algebra/Calc I teaching load will be almost a full-time job anyways.
But, even more than that, if you're considering a PhD, choose a mathematically-adjacent field that isn't math and pick up a co-supervisor from the math department. The only parts of math that you can't do in other departments are exactly the areas that don't match the criteria of "area with practical applications or that will teach you useful skills".
That does sound quite different. In NZ TAing during a PhD is completely optional, something you do for extra money. It's definitely a good idea to do some, but in general you wouldn't be allowed to do more than ~10 hours per week.
STEM PhDs in the US pay no tuition and receive a stipend of typically $30K+ as well as health insurance and sometimes housing benefits.
Honestly, "fuck it, do another Ph.D. in an adjacent field like math" is definitely in my "shit ran out of funds for ski trips because I retired too early and need some health insurance ASAP" quiver.
> So... at that age, we can see it as just an aspirational thing. But for younger people, it mostly (not all the time) sends the wrong message.
Like 20-somethings doing startup shit, PhDs can be terrible life choices or wonderful life choices. Outcomes are anything but uniform. If I had gone industry out of undergrad I might be making $150K by now. Instead I'm making close to 10x that doing exactly what I would be doing if I were an unemployed bum following my passion, all thanks to my phd. Lucky, sure. So are startup folks.
This is the pay at top tier universities with extremely exclusive entry criteria.
I was a former PhD student in CS. Washed out due to costs because I was self-funding. It was a local university and an R1 so not "bad" but also not ivy. I had absolutely no problem keeping up with class + research work while also working in industry as I have a lot of time on my hands and no family. I'm still a little sour about the whole thing because I had an incredible and flexible advisor. But costs are costs.
The average STEM PhD student at my university made 13k, up to 20k if you took on summer teaching duties. You did get classes covered, but health insurance came out of your stipend and you still had to cover ancillary fees (gym, technology, etc). So you walked, after taxes, with anywhere between 10 and 12k. They offered me an RA position with my PhD admission that paid approximately 20k. Obviously I could not take it and afford rent. Perhaps if they offered a free dorm and healthcare I could consider choking down 12-15k for 3-4 years to get the pay off in the end.
American PhD programs generally pay below poverty wages. Several PhD student colleagues of mine were on food stamps and lived with 1-3 other PhD students in the run down apartments adjacent to the university. It's abject suffering for the most part and direct-to-phd students often leave in their mid 30s burned out and 10 years behind other students in the workplace. I inquired with several universities about associate professor positions and even those have pretty insane post-doc requirements before being considered. You'll be 15+ years behind your cohort if you, god forbid, decide to go another 3 or so years in a slighty-above-poverty post doc position. At my university these paid around 40-45k, up to 60k for fairly exclusive positions. For what it's worth I make as much as the average industry CS PhD in a software engineering capacity after 10 years of service. I was pursuing it for pleasure and credentialing.
It is not practical, unfortunately, to pursue a PhD as an American unless you are incredibly wealthy or on a visa program. It is not surprising many PhD students are foreign born. No one intends to get rich with a PhD, but it seems even comfort is a far flung dream.
Seriously. Don't get a PhD in Math. It's a miserable field.